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Old July 12th, 2018, 04:50 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Citizen Kane View Post
Give Trump his due: Europe must spend more on NATO
Well, Sluggo, after all the "craziness" what has changed? NOTHING for the positive. No more cash, much less unity and instability.

Is Trump the most dangerous man post WW2?

Likely.
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Old July 12th, 2018, 05:41 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Marcus Livius View Post
The 1st Ukrainian Division in WWII is also known as 14th SS Division Galizien. Eighty thousand men volunteered for this division, that is more enthusiasm than even German SS divisions.





Another Ukrainian unit rounded up Jews for the Final Solution. It was called Battalion Nachtigall.
So what? The Nazis had a BRIT unit. The Nazis had a FRENCH unit. The Nazis had Dutch and Czech and Danish and Norweigian, etc, troops. Are you suggesting that all those countries want to be part of Germany?
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Old July 12th, 2018, 10:31 AM   #43
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And Trump just gave it a push and made it more needed than ever.
I suspect the UK will join and forgo Brexit.
The Trump strategy seems to be: see a fire, throw gasoline on it!

Only good thing is this kind of politician shows us which side he's on and what he intends to do.

I'm reminded that back the new Syriza Government in Greece was negotiating...or thought they were negotiating with Merkel and the EU leaders over debt-repayment terms, Obama was standing off stage in the shadows...just pretending to be a concerned global citizen. What we didn't know was that he was representing the interests of Goldman Sachs, who owned most of the debt owed by Greece and were leveraging that debt to include "austerity measures" that included privatizing major government assets for foreign buyers....including many small, Greek islands in the Aegean. That's how you earn $400,000 per speech! But, a loudmouth like Trump would have been on his twitter account every day, calling them losers and demanding they pay up or something. The last thing he would have been able to do was to just stand back and be quiet!
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Old July 12th, 2018, 12:29 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by PMB View Post
https://www.factcheck.org/2017/12/di...unding-figure/

In 2006, NATO members agreed to try to spend at least 2 percent of their gross domestic product on defense spending. In 2014, they agreed again to aim to meet that standard by 2024.
As of now, though, only the U.S., Greece, Estonia, Britain, Romania and Poland meet the 2 percent target, which led Trump to argue that our allies are not paying their “fair share.”
But other countries have been spending more in recent years. The estimated 4.3 percent bump in 2017 was the third straight year that defense spending by Canada and European allies increased, according to NATO.
And? How does that change the graph of the downward trend under Obama?
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Old July 12th, 2018, 12:43 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Marcus Livius View Post
And? How does that change the graph of the downward trend under Obama?
So, feel free to never, ever vote for Obama. *shrug*
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Old July 12th, 2018, 12:54 PM   #46
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So what? The Nazis had a BRIT unit.
The Britisches Freikorps never exceeded a roll call of 27 men. That is a whole lot less than 80,000. No other conquered foe of the Germans embraced Nazism stronger than the Ukrainians. The Ukrainian numbers are surpassed only by the former White Russians captured on the Eastern Front by the Germans. They happily volunteered to fight communists. The Russian Liberation Army in German uniform numbered 130,000 - but they did not embrace Nazism.

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The Nazis had a FRENCH unit. The Nazis had Dutch and Czech and Danish and Norweigian, etc, troops. Are you suggesting that all those countries want to be part of Germany?
Can you follow a conversation. LTR called the Ukrainians "Nazis". Lee said he was off his rails. I just pointed out that Nazism has been and still is deeply rooted in Ukraine. Have you even bothered to follow the Ukrainian-Separatist aka Ukrainian Civil War? Have you seen the banners, regalia, emblems, and salutes of the Ukrainian Azov Battalion?

Last edited by Marcus Livius; July 12th, 2018 at 12:58 PM.
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Old July 12th, 2018, 01:28 PM   #47
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Your posted article says the trend was reversed starting in 2015. Trump was not President in 2015, Obama was. Why give him credit? The process had already begun.
How come it didn't bother you guys when Obama said the same thing, that the other members should pay their FAIR SHAIR.
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Old July 12th, 2018, 01:37 PM   #48
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How come it didn't bother you guys when Obama said the same thing, that the other members should pay their FAIR SHAIR.


Is what I said in my post true or is it not???
Why do you think the tend reversed starting during Obama's administration? Obviously Obama did more than just run his mouth. Trump runs his big mouth too fucking much.
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Old July 12th, 2018, 01:55 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Marcus Livius View Post
The Britisches Freikorps never exceeded a roll call of 27 men. That is a whole lot less than 80,000. No other conquered foe of the Germans embraced Nazism stronger than the Ukrainians. The Ukrainian numbers are surpassed only by the former White Russians captured on the Eastern Front by the Germans. They happily volunteered to fight communists. The Russian Liberation Army in German uniform numbered 130,000 - but they did not embrace Nazism.


Can you follow a conversation. LTR called the Ukrainians "Nazis". Lee said he was off his rails. I just pointed out that Nazism has been and still is deeply rooted in Ukraine. Have you even bothered to follow the Ukrainian-Separatist aka Ukrainian Civil War? Have you seen the banners, regalia, emblems, and salutes of the Ukrainian Azov Battalion?
Do you understand the appeal of Nazism to the Ukrainians during WW2? That was based mostly on 1) German ethnicity and 2) people were sick of Stalin's oppression. Stalin artificially induced starvation in the Ukraine which resulted in the death of millions of Ukrainians. Hence, the Ukrainians didn't enlist as German symps because they loved the Nazis or Nazis politics, they enlisted because they hated Stalin with the heat of a thousand suns. Conflating massive enlistment of ethnic Germans from Ukraine to fight Stalin with today's neo-nazis is flat out goofy.

Yes, Ukraine has neo-nazis, thousands of them. So do we. SO DOES RUSSIA. So does nearly every European nation to one degree or another. Guess what? All those countries also have commie groups, too. Probably in significantly higher numbers than Neo-Nazis. In fact I'll sig bet you there are more registered communists in Ukraine than Neo-Nazis. I fail to see how your observations show the Ukraine is "deeply rooted" in Neo-Nazism. That's a statement of someone who doesn't know the history of the Ukraine/USSR.

Last edited by GluteusMaximus; July 12th, 2018 at 01:58 PM.
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Old July 12th, 2018, 03:33 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by GluteusMaximus View Post
Do you understand the appeal of Nazism to the Ukrainians during WW2? That was based mostly on 1) German ethnicity and 2) people were sick of Stalin's oppression. Stalin artificially induced starvation in the Ukraine which resulted in the death of millions of Ukrainians. Hence, the Ukrainians didn't enlist as German symps because they loved the Nazis or Nazis politics, they enlisted because they hated Stalin with the heat of a thousand suns. Conflating massive enlistment of ethnic Germans from Ukraine to fight Stalin with today's neo-nazis is flat out goofy.

Yes, Ukraine has neo-nazis, thousands of them. So do we. SO DOES RUSSIA. So does nearly every European nation to one degree or another. Guess what? All those countries also have commie groups, too. Probably in significantly higher numbers than Neo-Nazis. In fact I'll sig bet you there are more registered communists in Ukraine than Neo-Nazis. I fail to see how your observations show the Ukraine is "deeply rooted" in Neo-Nazism. That's a statement of someone who doesn't know the history of the Ukraine/USSR.
There is also the 'enemy of my enemy' principle at work here: in southeastern Europe, the Croatians allied with Germany, so Serbia went against them. Romania went with the Nazis also, so Bulgaria and Greece allied with the Soviets.

There were likely a combination of factors that created the "Holodomor" in Ukraine, besides Stalin trying to restrict food supplies from the Ukrainian independence movement, including his insistence on applying forced collectivization on farmers throughout the Soviet Union...surprising, because Stalin otherwise followed the pattern of a pragmatic autocrat, who seemed to have little concern for communist principles or ideology, but for unknown reasons, he decided to push collectivization harder than the doctrinaire Marxists like Leon Trotsky were willing to go. One historian I've come across a few times- Mark Tauger of West Virginia University, wrote that agriculture was failing throughout the Soviet Union (as it was in many places around the world at the time), and other outlying republics were facing famine also because of Stalin's central government insisting on bringing the required quotas of grain supplies to Moscow and other important cities, and trying to hide the food shortages and famine from the west....so that negated buying imported food if it was available. *worth noting that from the map on the Wikipedia entry, the most severe famine struck regions were in central and eastern Ukraine, not in the western part of the country, and from the map, it looks like eastern Turkey was also in severe famine conditions also.

Anyway, any nationalist movement is not far off fascism in troubled times! This is the price you pay anywhere in the world by encouraging nationalist and ethnic sectarianism. While the Soviet Union and other communist states like Yugoslavia existed, they acted as a damper or restraining influence on nationalism and their fascist spawn.

Look at what's happening today in Germany: it's been several years since they allowed in the thousands of refugees from Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan, but fascist rightwing parties are still growing there and using fear of immigrants (who actually commit less crime than native Germans) to foment violence against any newcomers who don't look German enough. But, that's the same story as the US of late...which according to the most recent numbers is actually at net zero immigration! That is as of last year, with more Mexicans leaving the US than entering. If it wasn't for refugees, we'd be talking about the US losing population, cause more people want to leave than enter.....I know I don't have plans of returning!
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