Political Forums  

Go Back   Defending The Truth Political Forum > Political Forum > Current Events

Current Events Current Events Forum - Latest political news and events

Thanks Tree40Thanks
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old July 12th, 2018, 04:02 PM   #51
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,755
Time to Kill NATO!

Now, if I can steer back towards the topic here of NATO, Trump doesn't really know what he's talkiing about, but neither does anyone else it seems in any positions of power and influence in America! Because the real question should be whether NATO is even necessary or relevant today, and is NATO and other dangerous military spending operations even worth their high costs?

I came across this piece from David Stockman....Reagan's former budget director....looks a lot older now, who sees NATO and other military cash cows as first places to look to cut America's enormous and unsustainable current accounts deficits, and he provides this quick assessment of what the military capabilities are of Russia and whether Russia would even consider it in their interests to try to invade Europe or part of Europe:

Time for a Mercy Killing at NATO
by David Stockman Posted on July 12, 2018
The Great Disrupter was in fine fettle Wednesday. First he scolded Germany for investing in a natural gas pipeline from Russia that makes all the sense in the world and then blasted it for not spending money on defense it doesn’t need. .............................................

When the remnants of principled Republicans voted down the TARP bailout of Wall Street, the Dow instantly plunged by 7% or $1.2 trillion, which would be equivalent to a 1700 point meltdown at today’s index level.

Of course, that particular hissy fit brought the GOP pols scampering back to the House floor. Having gotten their heads right in the interim, they marched back up the hill to approve George Bush’s $700 billion package of crony capitalist loot.

There hasn’t been even a close call since then. The only thing the gamblers really fear, apparently, is that a central banker might look at them cross-eyed. But as we told CNBC viewers yesterday, no central banker has the backbone to even wrinkle his brow in the direction of Wall Street.

We also told them that a bone-crushing trade war is coming. That’s because the Donald has no idea what he’s doing and is triggering an avalanche of bouncing billiard balls on the $17 trillion global trade table that is too complex and too interactive to even fathom and which, therefore, will be nigh impossible to stop.............................................. ...

Likewise, when we mentioned 43-years of continuous and growing US current account deficits, Mike Santoli, a casino croupier if there ever was one, suggested there is nothing to see here, implying that viewers should move along toward the buy key on their trade stations.

After all, America’s huge current account deficits – $7 trillion in the last 15 years alone – are allegedly just the accounting record of happy campers all around the world cheerfully sending their savings to America so that we can buy their goods and live high on the hog.

Besides, Santoli intoned, what’s the "emergency" if it’s been going on for 43 years?

Which, of course, is exactly what the 43-year smoker said right before he was felled by lung cancer.

What we are saying is that its dangerous out there because the conventional wisdom has incorporated big memes and postulates that are fundamentally untrue.

In this particular case, for crying out loud, the world is not sending the US its "savings".

To the contrary, other central banks have spent 3o years pumping-up their own fiat monies in order to scoop-up unwanted US dollars, thereby sequestering America’s prodigious debt emissions in the vaults of foreign central banks. And that was done, of course, to suppress their own exchange rates and boost export industries so that they could sell America even more goods on credit.

This is sustainable? You can borrow your way to everlasting prosperity?

We will have much more to say on this topic in the future because in his blunderbuss manner, the Donald is finally bringing it all to a head. Not withstanding that a tariff war is exactly the wrong solution, Trump is actually asking the right question: To wit, how in the world can the US still be running an $800 billion trade deficit long after the world economy was allegedly fixed by ZIRP and QE?

The fact is, the US’ massively imbalanced trade accounts are the flip-side of the very hollowed out economy in Flyover America that put the Donald in the Oval Office.

And yet establishment groupthink doggedly insists that the richest big country in the world can borrow indefinitely from the mostly poorer ranks elsewhere on the planet, and that sooner or later the Donald will flinch from his quest to fix the problem because Wall Street will take him to the woodshed if he doesn’t.

We’d call that head-in-the-sand insouciance, and suggest it is exactly reason why the coming correction will be so tumultuous. And the comforting theory that the Donald is all bark and no bite on trade is not the end of the complacency, either.................................

Well, here’s a news flash for the Donald: You don’t need to your budget-busting $716 billion defense budget to defend Germany from Russia because there is absolutely no reason to believe the latter wants to attack Germany or any other country in Europe.

Indeed, the very idea is just plain madness – yet the quest for ever more funding for the Warfare State is exactly what is helping to bring-on a thundering crisis in the bond pits just ahead.......................................

Now that’s exactly right. As shown by the table below, the NATO-28 (excluding the US) are now actually spending $250 billion per year on defense (2017). That’s 4X Russia’s entire military budget of $61 billion.

So what is NATO doing with all those tens of billions that wouldn’t keep the Russkies at bay – even if they had aggressive intentions, which by the record they most surely do not?

Likewise, the GDP of Russia is but $1.4 trillion compared to $18 trillion for the NATO-28. So is Cool Hand Vlad so completely foolish and reckless as to think that he could invade and occupy territories that have an economy 13X bigger than that of Russia?

Actually, it’s far more ludicrous than that. As we have often pointed out, Russia is a giant hydrocarbon province attached to some wheat fields, timber lands and mineral deposits – all dependent upon an aging work force afflicted with an undue fondness for Vodka etc.

What that means is that Russia must export its commodities big time or die. In fact, during 2017 Russian exports totaled $357 billion or 26% of its GDP. And 55% or nearly $200 billion went to Europe!

Moreover, when you breakdown Russian exports it is plain to see that the industrial maw of Europe is the port of first call for its vast tonnages of exported commodities. These included $173 billion of oil and gas and $60 billion of iron, steel, aluminum, precious metals, forest products, fertilizers, grains and copper, among others.

Finally, the table on defense spending by country below speaks for itself as to the purported Russian threat. If the German government really feared that Russian tanks would be soon rolling through the Brandenburg Gates, it would have more than 20 operational tanks, and it would spend far more than $40.6 billion or 1.2% of GDP to defend itself.

And the same is even more true of the former Warsaw pact countries that are located cheek-by-jowl on Russia’s border. Yet Romania spends the tiny sum of $2.8 billion or 1.2% of GDP on its military, while the figure for Hungary, which learned all about Soviet-style invasion in 1956, spends only $1.2 billion or barely 1.0% of GDP. And besides that, its intrepid leader, Viktor Orban, doesn’t even support NATO’s ridiculous sanctions on Putin’s cronies and allies.

And as for the allegedly threatened Baltic states, their combined defense budgets are less than $1.5 billion, representing a miniscule 1.7% of combined GDP; and Bulgaria, fast upon the Russian Lake called the Black Sea, spends only $660 million or 1.4% of its GDP.

In short, European policy action on the defense spending front trumps all the hot air that wafts from NATO’s spanking new Brussels headquarters. Their governments and parliaments positively do not think they are threatened by the Russian Bear because they aren’t.

What would help alot, therefore, is for the Great Disrupter to forget about his unfortunate infatuation with the idea that bigger is always better, and do what no other American politician in thrall to the Warfare State has been unable to do since 1991 when the Soviet Union slithered off the pages of history.

That is, declare "mission accomplished" with respect to NATO and disband it forthwith.

You could call it a Mercy Killing, and yet a couple more NATO summits like this one, and the Europeans themselves may well start begging for exactly that.

David Stockman was a two-term Congressman from Michigan. He was also the Director of the Office of Management and Budget under President Ronald Reagan.
right to left is offline  
Old July 12th, 2018, 04:08 PM   #52
Senior Member
avlis's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Matosinhos Portugal
Posts: 1,427
I've always been against it.
Portugal outside of Nato

Sempre fui contra.
Portugal fora da Nato

Trump was good if he was President of a Circus company
Trump era bom se fosse Presidente de uma companhia de Circo
avlis is offline  
Old July 12th, 2018, 04:40 PM   #53
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: La Pine, Oregon
Posts: 67
Originally Posted by Marcus Livius View Post
And? How does that change the graph of the downward trend under Obama?
Uhhh, global recession.
Old Trapper is offline  
Old July 12th, 2018, 06:18 PM   #54
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Hell
Posts: 864
Originally Posted by GluteusMaximus View Post
Do you understand the appeal of Nazism to the Ukrainians during WW2? That was based mostly on 1) German ethnicity and
You're wrong. The ethnic Germans in Ukraine were DEPORTED to Central Asia shortly after Operation Barbarossa was launched.

2) people were sick of Stalin's oppression. Stalin artificially induced starvation in the Ukraine which resulted in the death of millions of Ukrainians. Hence, the Ukrainians didn't enlist as German symps because they loved the Nazis or Nazis politics, they enlisted because they hated Stalin with the heat of a thousand suns. Conflating massive enlistment of ethnic Germans from Ukraine to fight Stalin with today's neo-nazis is flat out goofy.
Again, you are talking about something you don't know much about. The famine was Soviet Union wide. It was the inflexible communist system of collective farming and grain redistribution that was the main cause. Ukraine was unable to produce enough to feed herself, let alone her quota, yet the system still required her grain to be distributed to other SSR's. That is how communism works. Food is just another form of wealth to be redistributed. What is often ignored is that Stalin's own home SSR of Georgia suffered as greatly as Ukraine.

And again, any ethnic Germans or Ukrainians with a German surname were deported, primarily to Siberia. There were a few that managed to hide their ethnicities, but not nearly enough to build a division even if you included everyone from babies to old ladies. Perhaps you are confusing the ethnic German Ukrainians with the Vistula Germans (Poland) and the Volga Germans (Russia). Those who enlisted were ethic Ukrainians, not ethnic Germans. They still have 14th SS Division REUNIONS in Ukraine.

Yes, Ukraine has neo-nazis, thousands of them. So do we. SO DOES RUSSIA. So does nearly every European nation to one degree or another. Guess what? All those countries also have commie groups, too. Probably in significantly higher numbers than Neo-Nazis. In fact I'll sig bet you there are more registered communists in Ukraine than Neo-Nazis. I fail to see how your observations show the Ukraine is "deeply rooted" in Neo-Nazism. That's a statement of someone who doesn't know the history of the Ukraine/USSR.
Many of the National Militia's members come from the Azov movement, one of the 30-odd privately-funded “volunteer battalions” that, in the early days of the war, helped the regular army to defend Ukrainian territory against Russia's separatist proxies. Although Azov uses Nazi-era symbolism and recruits neo-Nazis into its ranks, a recent article in Foreign Affairs downplayed any risks the group might pose, pointing out that, like other volunteer militias, Azov has been “reined in” through its integration into Ukraine’s armed forces. While it’s true that private militias no longer rule the battlefront, it’s the home front that Kiev needs to worry about now.

When Russian President Vladimir Putin’s seizure of Crimea four years ago first exposed the decrepit condition of Ukraine’s armed forces, right-wing militias such as Azov and Right Sector stepped into the breach, fending off the Russian-backed separatists while Ukraine’s regular military regrouped. Though, as a result, many Ukrainians continue to regard the militias with gratitude and admiration, the more extreme among these groups promote an intolerant and illiberal ideology that will endanger Ukraine in the long term. Since the Crimean crisis, the militias have been formally integrated into Ukraine’s armed forces, but some have resisted full integration: Azov, for example, runs its own children’s training camp, and the careers section instructs recruits who wish to transfer to Azov from a regular military unit.

According to Freedom House’s Ukraine project director Matthew Schaaf, “numerous organized radical right-wing groups exist in Ukraine, and while the volunteer battalions may have been officially integrated into state structures, some of them have since spun off political and non-profit structures to implement their vision.” Schaaf noted that “an increase in patriotic discourse supporting Ukraine in its conflict with Russia has coincided with an apparent increase in both public hate speech, sometimes by public officials and magnified by the media, as well as violence towards vulnerable groups such as the LGBT community,” an observation that is supported by a recent Council of Europe study.
More than 50 US Congress members condemned Ukrainian legislation that they said “glorifies Nazi collaborators” and therefore goes further than Poland’s laws on rhetoric about the Holocaust.

The condemnation came in an open bipartisan letter to Deputy Secretary of State John Sullivan that was initiated by Democratic Reps. Ro Khanna of California and David Cicilline of Rhode Island.

While noting that Poland passing a law in February that criminalizes blaming the Polish nation for Nazi crimes was “cause for concern,” the letter uses much harsher and likely precedent-setting language about developments in Ukraine that thus far have received relatively little attention in the West, observers of these processes said.
“Ukraine’s luck of flying beneath the radar has finally run out,” Dovid Katz, the founder of the Defending History website about Holocaust distortion in Eastern Europe, wrote on Twitter about the letter. “Never imagined we’d see this day.”

The language on Ukraine “is brutal — and richly deserved,” he added.

The letter states that “It’s particularly troubling that much of the Nazi glorification in Ukraine is government-supported.” It noted ceremonies, gestures and legislation venerating leaders of the UPA and OUN militias, who fought alongside Nazi Germany during World War II and whose troops participated in atrocities against Jews and other victims.

Khanna’s office in a statement also noted how city authorities in Lviv allowed the celebration of the anniversary of the 14th Galician division of the Waffen SS at events this month featuring men parading in Nazi SS uniforms on the street. The statements also cited JTA’s coverage of a teacher and local politician who allegedly celebrated Adolf Hitler’s birthday on Facebook and took pictures of her students at the public school where she taught history performing the Nazi salute with her. She has since been fired.

“The State Department must use all available diplomatic channels to work with the Ukrainian and Polish government to combat the rise of this hateful ideology which has historically threatened peace and security in the region,” the Congress members wrote to Sullivan.
In Ukraine, a revolution in 2013 that ended the rule of a key Kremlin ally ushered in a wave of nationalism that coincided with what Israeli researchers of anti-Semitism in January called a massive increase in anti-Semitic incidents amid government inaction.

The glorification of fighters who allied with the Nazis against Russian domination increased considerably in volume after 2013. In 2015, the Ukrainian parliament passed a law that criminalizes denying the “heroism” of some of these allies of Nazi Germany, which oversaw the near annihilation of the region’s Jews.

The letter also calls on the State Department to appoint a special envoy to monitor and combat anti-Semitism, a position that has remained vacant for more than a year though it was mandated by law.

“The longer this position, which has worldwide reach, sits unfilled, the more it sends the message that the US will tolerate anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial,” the letter says.

A State Department spokeswoman earlier this month told JTA that combating anti-Semitism remains a “priority” for the Trump administration.

The old guy is a veteran of the 14th SS.

Last edited by Marcus Livius; July 12th, 2018 at 06:48 PM.
Marcus Livius is offline  
Old July 12th, 2018, 06:36 PM   #55
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: massachusetts
Posts: 11,283
Originally Posted by roastpork View Post
How come it didn't bother you guys when Obama said the same thing, that the other members should pay their FAIR SHAIR.
And NATO members began increasing their spending.
And Trump takes credit for what Obama began, again.

The fat orange piece of shit, remains the hero of morons.
Even as he leads the country into disaster.
Thanks from RNG, Camelot and leekohler2
goober is offline  
Old July 12th, 2018, 06:47 PM   #56
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Hell
Posts: 864
Originally Posted by right to left View Post
There is also the 'enemy of my enemy' principle at work here: in southeastern Europe, the Croatians allied with Germany, so Serbia went against them.
That was due to religion. Croats are Catholics and Serbs are Orthodox.

Romania went with the Nazis also, so Bulgaria and Greece allied with the Soviets.
Bulgaria was fighting for the Germans until occupied by the Soviets, the same as Romania.

Greece's issue was with Italy when Mussolini invade Greece through Albania. What did the Soviets do? NOTHING. It was the Brits that came to their aid which caused the Germans to come to the aid of the bumbling Italians. What beef did Greece have with Romania?
Marcus Livius is offline  
Old July 12th, 2018, 07:41 PM   #57
GluteusMaximus's Avatar
Join Date: May 2018
Location: USA
Posts: 850
Originally Posted by citizen kane View Post
indeed, and any american backing vladimir putin's lapdog president trump on this is a fool.

About the author:
matthieu borsboom, a former vice admiral of the royal netherlands navy, is burson-marsteller’s senior adviser for defense and security.

Noticed you made a grammatical error. Fixed it for you.

Yes, you are most welcome.
GluteusMaximus is offline  
Old July 12th, 2018, 10:10 PM   #58
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Earth
Posts: 94
Originally Posted by PMB View Post
Interesting article. Thank you. Why would any country want another countries military in it, it was fine after WWII , but this Nato thing racked up after 9-11,

we will not leave.
It's silly for the Europeans to get stressed out over Russia. They should reach a mutual understanding and agree to co-exist in peace and harmony. It's obvious that they aren't going to go to war against each other so it's silly to spend money for toys for the military. Besides, Russia can kill all of them today with about 12 nukes.
FrostKing is offline  
Old July 12th, 2018, 10:25 PM   #59
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,170
Originally Posted by goober View Post
And NATO members began increasing their spending.
And Trump takes credit for what Obama began, again.

The fat orange piece of shit, remains the hero of morons.
Even as he leads the country into disaster.
Oh my, not only that, but this:

President Donald Trump opened the NATO summit on Wednesday on a frosty note, grousing about disproportionate U.S. contributions to the alliance and reiterating his oft-tweeted mantra that NATO allies “must pay MORE, the United States must pay LESS.” The numbers, however, tell a different story. The Trump administration has relentlessly boosted spending on military activity in Europe, topping Obama-era spending for training and operations by as much as 40 percent, adding $1.4 billion for drills and operations.

“The Trump administration has increased funding for the U.S. presence in Europe by 40 percent,” NATO's Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg wrote in The Guardian last month. “The last U.S. battle tank left Europe in 2013, but now they are back in the form of a whole new U.S. armored brigade.”

Stoltenberg was referring to the European Reassurance or Defense Initiative, a NATO official confirmed to Newsweek. President Barack Obama began the initiative in June 2014, at a high point of concern by European allies that Russia could repeat its annexation of Crimea elsewhere in Eastern Europe. The fund grew to $3.4 billion last year from an initial $1 billion in 2015. The Trump administration added another $1.4 billion to it in 2017. The money directly funds Operation Atlantic Resolve—a series of training events with Poland, the Baltics and other European allies, alongside thousands of U.S. troops rotating through Europe every year.
Trump Complains NATO Costs Too Much, Outspends Obama by 40 Percent and Counting

Thanks from Camelot
leekohler2 is offline  
Old July 13th, 2018, 08:01 PM   #60
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,755
Originally Posted by roastpork View Post
How come it didn't bother you guys when Obama said the same thing, that the other members should pay their FAIR SHAIR.
Because Obama said it quietly and added 'pretty please!' At least that's the way it seemed in comparison.

It's still bullshit! NATO has outlived its purpose, and it's new purpose has been to provide some figleaf of international recognition when the UN will not, for US regime change operations....that leave failed states in Libya, Sudan, Somalia, Yemen, Syria, Iraq....and send boatloads of refugees across the Mediterranean trying to get into Europe.....so pull the plug on NATO and send the troops home that are stationed in Germany!

We're getting this BS story that Russia will attack Germany, Hungary, and the Baltic states if NATO is disbanded....with what? And why? Russia is dependent on Germany for trade and sales of gas. The combined NATO powrs in Europe (without the US) have much greater military assets than Russia. The only thing Russia has in greater supply are nukes....which can't be used in any conventional warfare anyway...so, it only exists today to sell billions in military hardware and keep generals and lower ranked officers employed.
right to left is offline  

  Defending The Truth Political Forum > Political Forum > Current Events

due, europe, give, nato, spend, trump

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New GOP Policy: Spend Spend Spend, And Spend Some More skews13 Current Events 37 February 13th, 2018 06:31 PM
Trump ignorant about NATO GhostRider Americas 55 March 21st, 2017 09:09 AM
How much time might President Trump spend above 50 percent approval? Kipper Current Events 1 December 14th, 2016 10:12 AM
Head of NATO slams the Trump GhostRider Americas 16 August 22nd, 2016 11:45 PM
Trump: Rethink NATO excalibur Current Events 3 March 22nd, 2016 06:16 PM

Facebook Twitter RSS Feed

Copyright © 2005-2013 Defending The Truth. All rights reserved.