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Old October 23rd, 2009, 04:58 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevindanielbrown
Of course but why does it have to forcefully extracted without permission?



Every home/family operates on revenue too does that give them permission to forcefully take the property of others?



Nor am I asking to wait for such nonsense just like I wouldn't ask a father trying to provide for his family to wait for the tooth fairy or Santa Claus.



Yes so?



And no person can survive without food, water, shelter, etc. Does the fact that an individual needs such things to survive give them permission to forcefully take property from others to pay for it?



Of course just like the fair way to pay for say food is for the customer to choose what food he/she wants and then trade money for it voluntarily.



That all depends on what constitutes "the bare essentials of government."



Frankly I don't necessary have such answers but I have always been intrigued by the idea of possibly funding government via lotteries, casinos, and user fees. Since those methods are all voluntary and don't require the forceful taking of one's property against there will I would much prefer these peaceful means of acquiring funds. I frankly don't know if it's viable however.
Any time people create a culture they must also create a government to take care of the essentials and it requires hard cash. I believe as you government should be small and serve specific purposes and do it efficiently. In any culture there will be orphans, criminals, enemies of the culture and so on ... basic common use facilities such as schools, highways, railways and waterways... all cost money to operate thus require funding with cash money.



I'm conservative so I think government should be bare bones small and all the government compassion be limited to orphans and the insane. All other services should be local and originate from family, church and community... only at that level can abuse of compassion be observed and stomped out.



Taxing corporations is stupid since they pass the expense to citizens through added costs. The only fair way to tax corporations is to tax them for all taxes and let them pass the costs on to us... but if you do this other nations will offer them lower taxes and they will leave. So, I say do not tax the corporations or any employer and let them thrive with low overhead. Tax the citizens fairly according to their abilities and consumption.
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Old October 24th, 2009, 10:41 AM   #12
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Old October 24th, 2009, 02:34 PM   #13
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My company commander in the 82nd MP Co. told stories about living in the desert southwest waiting into the night for the irrigation water to come for their farm... he also made jokes about his dad getting a deferment from the draft to grow weed in support of the war effort...Just the vision of his dad toking up waiting for the irrigation water would get me laughing.
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Old October 26th, 2009, 11:30 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Zack
Any time people create a culture they must also create a government to take care of the essentials
No, there are historical records of civilizations that survived and lived very prosperous for hundreds of years with no government.



Quote:
and it requires hard cash.
Which again doesn't have to be forcefully extracted against the owners will. Again food, clothing, shelter etc requires hard cash but that does not justify stealing from another.



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I believe as you government should be small and serve specific purposes and do it efficiently.
Who said I believe in government at all?



Quote:
In any culture there will be orphans, criminals, enemies of the culture and so on ... basic common use facilities such as schools, highways, railways and waterways... all cost money to operate thus require funding with cash money.
And those needs still don't justify stealing property from others in order to satisfy said needs just like no one has the right to steal for food, clothing, shelter, etc.



Quote:
I'm conservative so I think government should be bare bones small and all the government compassion be limited to orphans and the insane.
What you consider bare bones I most likely consider huge and bloated.



Also government can't be compassionate. Compassion is a human trait that only an individual can be a part of.



Quote:
All other services should be local and originate from family, church and community... only at that level can abuse of compassion be observed and stomped out.



Taxing corporations is stupid since they pass the expense to citizens through added costs. The only fair way to tax corporations is to tax them for all taxes and let them pass the costs on to us... but if you do this other nations will offer them lower taxes and they will leave. So, I say do not tax the corporations or any employer and let them thrive with low overhead. Tax the citizens fairly according to their abilities and consumption.
Again how can forecefully taking someone's property against there will ever be considered fair? The word "fair" is incompatible with stealing...
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Old October 26th, 2009, 11:35 AM   #15
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I doubt a people could survive in this day and time with no government. We ain't running around with swinging hoohaas and picking berries any more.
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Old October 26th, 2009, 11:42 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by fxashun
I doubt a people could survive in this day and time with no government.
Why?



Aren't we humans as well just like other human civilizations that have survived and thrived without government? Are we dumber or something? Or less human maybe?



Quote:
We ain't running around with swinging hoohaas and picking berries any more.
Yes I am aware however I fail to see how this has any relevance on the debate of needing government or not...



Do you have a logical reason for thinking we can't survive without government even though we have in the past?
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Old October 26th, 2009, 11:46 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevindanielbrown
Why?



Aren't we humans as well just like other human civilizations that have survived and thrived without government? Are we dumber or something? Or less human maybe?
We aren't necessarily dumber, but we live in much denser populations and have much more complicated lives. I doubt a large population could get by on foraging and barter without some set standard of currency, some established rules, and a method to enforce them. Nomadic tribes surrounded by nothingness could get by without government, a population of 300 million, not so much.



Quote:
Yes I am aware however I fail to see how this has any relevance on the debate of needing government or not...

Do you have a logical reason for thinking we can't survive without government even though we have in the past?
See above.
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Old October 26th, 2009, 11:53 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by fxashun
We aren't necessarily dumber, but we live in much denser populations and have much more complicated lives. I doubt a large population could get by on foraging and barter without some set standard of currency, some established rules, and a method to enforce them.
Your implication is that without government everyone would have to roam and wander around for food, barter, have no standard money, have no rules, and no methods of enforcing them. Why would any of those be the case without government?



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Nomadic tribes could get by without government, a population of 300 million, not so much.
You certainly haven't explained why but merely claimed "they can't"...
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Old October 26th, 2009, 12:00 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevindanielbrown
Your implication is that without government everyone would have to roam and wander around for food, barter, have no standard money, have no rules, and no methods of enforcing them. Why would any of those be the case without government?
No not "everyone", but just as we have a certain few people that operate outside of social mores with government, those same people would be free to pillage without it. It would be nice to live in a utopia where law enforcement was unnecessary, but "The Andy Griffin Show" wasn't necessarily based on reality.



Quote:
You certainly haven't explained why but merely claimed "they can't"...
The fact that there aren't is self explanatory. You haven't specified any society that hasn't had a government. What society has existed without a governmental structure? Even elders and chiefs are considered a form of government.
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Old October 26th, 2009, 12:23 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by fxashun
No not "everyone", but just as we have a certain few people that operate outside of social mores with government, those same people would be free to pillage without it.
Why is that? Why wouldn't anyone stop them?



I know I would....



Quote:
It would be nice to live in a utopia where law enforcement was unnecessary, but "The Andy Griffin Show" wasn't necessarily based on reality.
I never claimed law enforcement isn't necessary. What butt are you pulling that out of?



On the contrary I do find law enforcement very necessary.





Quote:
The fact that there aren't is self explanatory.
There have been though.



Quote:
You haven't specified any society that hasn't had a government. What society has existed without a governmental structure?
Ancient Ireland.



Quote:
Even elders and chiefs are considered a form of government.
Not necessarily.
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