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Old May 7th, 2012, 03:05 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Danjb25 View Post
It is absolutely amazing that you're answer to a debt problem is trillions more debt, at interest no less, how can you even claim to be a economist? Washed up is a very nice label you gave yourself, because your idea of economics is beyond irrational.


You feel better now?
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Old May 7th, 2012, 03:22 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Danjb25' timestamp='1336427641' post='400118

[quote name='Fayt' timestamp='1336425236' post='400110']

[quote name='Danjb25' timestamp='1336417524' post='400096']

It amazes me still that even with damning evidence that both sides of the aisle are completely corrupt one has to place sole blame on "them". US government printing it's own money to pay back debt goes against the powers that be who control the politicians. If voter fraud and politicians being bought out was not an issue we could just elect those who wouldn't be controlled. However, I see the whole house of cards tumbling before any changes are made.


Hey I'm just stating the facts, facts you hate to hear. If this was the other way around and it was the democrats who spent over $14 trillion dollars and growing, you wouldn't hesitate to point your fingers at us. Matter of fact again, I believe you were one of the ones who were going around saying how Obama tripled or quadrupled the debt. But ones us libs came around and set you straight, 'OHHHH IT'S BOTH PARTIES FAULTS', which is still a lie.



You don't see any progress happening in this country for 2 main reasons. 1, the republicans are successful at blocking almost everything Obama want done that will turn this country around and 2, the Supreme Court giving more power to corporations and ruling that money equals speech.



I've explained to you before, I rather raise taxes to stimulate this country but if we have to borrow (even if our debt is $100 trillion dollars) the benefit will out weight the negative factors in the long run. Put people back to work will enable more tax revenue to pay down the debt several times over over and over again.


If you viewed the movies, explain to me then how you would pay for fiat money lent at interest? How is that advantageous to our economy? You cannot ignore the insurmountable debt we already have, Europe tired to ignore it, how is the Eurozone fairing? You love to label fault. FINE, only for the sake of argument, it's all the republicans fault that the FED has made us their slaves based in debt out of a fiat currency. What now? what's your silver bullet to fix it. How on earth can keynesian economics save a broken keynesian economy? Are you in favor of ractional reserve banking? Are you in favor of any bank anywhere creating currency out of nothing that solely based on debt? Are you in favor of supplying our nation with currency that is borrowed on interest. Usury is a pervertion of economies that does nothing but indebt the entire system to the banks. Did you even watch the video?

[/quote]



Have you even read my post #5? I wrote that we should nationalize our individual state banks or the Fed. The other truth is that we don't have a debt crisis in this country Dan, we have a demand crisis. Demand being not enough money circulating through the economy due to the lack of money in people's pockets (aka wages). If there were a real debt crisis in the U.S. (like there is in Greece), then we would be paying 10 20 30% interest on our bonds because no one would want them and therefore we have to offer a high interest rate. In stead our bonds are selling at about 2% interest rate. Japan have a debt of over 200% of their GDP, that's over twice of what ours is Dan. And Japan doesn't have a crisis either because their bonds are selling for a few points or paying interest. So there's no debt crisis in the U.S..



The real crisis as I pointed out before and I guess you acknowledged, is a republican crisis. If we made the draconian spending cuts that you, republicans and the libertarians advocate for, we still will have a massive debt. It wouldn't put a single dent in it. Even if we took our military spending down to zero (we're spending in the neighborhood of $600 or $700 billion dollars a year on our military) that's still not the $1.2 trillion of our annual debt. So even if you eliminated our military, eliminated our Department of Education, eliminated our Department of Energy, and other "large chunks" of the government, we will still have debt. And as I believe I've pointed out to you before, having a little debt is a good thing.



We never saw massive debt in the U.S. with the exception of serious war times like World War 2. The last year of World War 2 our annual debt was over 120% of GDP. In other words, we owed more than we made in a year in our economy. We then greatly reduced that debt in the next 5 years without cutting a single thing but rather growing our way out of it. This is because the republican Dwight Eisenhower promoted massive government spending (aka stimulus). He promoted building the national highway system, promoted building schools, promoted building hospitals, promoted building water treatment plants, sewer treatment plants and infrastructural all over this country. He continued with the work that FDR and Harry Truman had started of building dams, power stations, and power plants all over this country.



All of this stuff continued by the republican president Dwight Eisenhower and he was defending the 91% tax rate on the very very rich. This which by the way, caused the very rich to take only 30-40 times of what their workers were making in terms of pay. Then doing the Johnson administration in 1964, that top tax rate got dropped down to the 70s but the loop holes got closed up but because the tax rate was well over 50%, the CEOs still kept their money in their business and continue to grow them. Then Reagan came along and dropped that top tax rate from 70% down to 28% therefore starting the giant bubble economy. Almost the 50 years prior to that, it was the 1st time in our over 200 year history of the U.S. that we had gone more than 15 years without a major boom and then bank crash. That happened because the very very rich people didn't have a lot of money to make high risk speculative investments. That is what causes the cycle of boom and crash. So therefor Dan we went almost 50 years without a major boom or crash. Instead, we had nice study growth of about 3.3% per decade in the 1940s 50s 60s and 70s.

[/quote]



200 billion dollars each year from our taxes are spent on just making interest payments to the debt we've accumulated through the Fed. You can divert from the root cause if you wish but the math remains the same. I cannot believe you suggest to further devalue the dollar in order to give people more money to spend. Money that is worth 96% less than it did in 1913 when the Fed was created. The Eurozone is a bit different than the USD, you don't think that interest rates would skyrocket if the Fed was purposefully keeping them low in a vain effort to make you believe we do not have a currency/debt crisis?



Forcing people to spend by artificially keeping interest rates low while devalueing the dollar keep this economy in a period of stagflation, as I have explained this to you before. Wages not going up, the continued creation of money from no where which not only devalues the dollar but inflate the prices of goods and services is stagflating our economy.



We could pay off our debt extremely simply without creating inflation or deflation. If you'd saw the video you'd know this, so I guess I will have to explain. If the treasury department said tomorrow they would be the sole providers of banknotes and coins and mandate that all debt will be paid by using the Government banknotes, of course a grace period would be needed to get the USD out of circulation, the government could pay off all of it debts in one day, because their USD is the only accepted currency. They would have to force the banks to abandon fractional reserve banking and they can only lend our what they have available to them. Ensure usury must be spent in some way, such as high employee wages, dividends on their shareholders, buildings and such. This would kill the debt and we would go back to a credit currency no a debt currency. All currency is created out of debt, all of it.
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Old May 7th, 2012, 03:24 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Danjb25' timestamp='1336427748' post='400120

It is absolutely amazing that you're answer to a debt problem is trillions more debt, at interest no less, how can you even claim to be a economist? Washed up is a very nice label you gave yourself, because your idea of economics is beyond irrational.


You feel better now?


And I bet your previous rant makes you believe won the debate? Your position still rings of someone who has blind faith in a broken system. If the banks create money out of debt to be repaid at interest, how are we not slaves to their controllings of the economy? You didn't watch the video did you?
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Old May 7th, 2012, 09:46 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Danjb25 View Post
It is absolutely amazing that you're answer to a debt problem is trillions more debt, at interest no less, how can you even claim to be a economist? Washed up is a very nice label you gave yourself, because your idea of economics is beyond irrational.


Just recently, Dan, I've become aware of a nation's "external debt."



Quote:
The portion of a country's debt that was borrowed from foreign lenders including commercial banks, governments or international financial institutions. These loans, including interest, must usually be paid in the currency in which the loan was made. In order to earn the needed currency, the borowing country may sell and export goods to the lender's country.
http://www.investope...p#ixzz1uFifUeYX.



In other words, external debt is a measure of how much a country is owned by domestic and foreign bankers. As such, it's a better measure of overall debt than national debt to GDP. National debts are only a part of a nation's external debt. Look at this (click to enlarge):







It's the percentage of external debt to GDP. As you can see, the US is sitting prettier than a whole bunch of socialist European nations.



I posted it somewhere else, but of the twenty nations with the worst external debt to GDP percentages, the US is #20, at about 100 percent. Australia, #17, 140 percent. Spain, so in the news, #16, 169.9 percent. Greece, headline grabber, #15, 179 percent.



Germany, #14, at 184 percent. Norway, #10, 247 percent. Number eight is Sweden, 262 percent. Denmark, 283 percent, #6. Netherlands, #4, 367 percent. Switzerland, #3, 391 percent, per capita debt $174,022 per person. United Kingdom, #2, 451 percent, external debt per capita, $161,110. The winner is Ireland, 1239 percent, $478,087 for every Irish citizen. Owned.



If the US dollar went down, the carnage would be bloody. The demise of the dollar is a threat to national, and world, security as grave as nuclear-tipped ICBMs on a 15-20 minute delivery schedule, a quicker delivery than ordering a pizza.
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Old May 8th, 2012, 10:55 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Danjb25 View Post
200 billion dollars each year from our taxes are spent on just making interest payments to the debt we've accumulated through the Fed. You can divert from the root cause if you wish but the math remains the same. I cannot believe you suggest to further devalue the dollar in order to give people more money to spend. Money that is worth 96% less than it did in 1913 when the Fed was created. The Eurozone is a bit different than the USD, you don't think that interest rates would skyrocket if the Fed was purposefully keeping them low in a vain effort to make you believe we do not have a currency/debt crisis?


You still think I'm in favor of keeping the Federal Reserve, I've said twice already that I believe it should be nationalized. Taken under the purview of the Treasury Department of the U.S. Government. The only money that's truly federalized is our coins. And once again, we don't have a debt crises. I've just explained that to you. Japan is over 200% of their GDP and they're still selling bonds cheap. We don't have a debt problem we have a JOBS problem. You can't see the debt lower if no one is employed to pay taxes. The rich sure as heck not and they should contribute more, progressively. There's not need to worry about the debt as long it doesn't increase faster than the rate of inflation and hopefully GDP rises at or above the rate of inflation. Our debt can grow indefinitely without bankrupting us or destroying our monetary system.



So stop worrying about our debt and worry about employing people so we can massively pay down that debt you're so worry about. Why doesn't this make sense to you?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Danjb25 View Post
Forcing people to spend by artificially keeping interest rates low while devalueing the dollar keep this economy in a period of stagflation, as I have explained this to you before. Wages not going up, the continued creation of money from no where which not only devalues the dollar but inflate the prices of goods and services is stagflating our economy.


What keeps the economy in a period of stagflation is wages not going up. Money has circulate threw our economy like blood circulates threw our veins. Sometimes a blood transfusion is needed to replace blood doing a serious injury or incident. In this case, the injury is a recession. The body can't do it on its own fast enough Dan and if we wait and/or start cutting out important organs, the body will die.



Metaphorically speaking.



So we need a blood transfusion aka Stimulus. Even if we have to borrow and it's still a better choice than letting the who economy die. I advocate for just raising taxes to pay for our stimulus but you keep wanting to skip that part. Whatever.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Danjb25 View Post
We could pay off our debt extremely simply without creating inflation or deflation. If you'd saw the video you'd know this, so I guess I will have to explain. If the treasury department said tomorrow they would be the sole providers of banknotes and coins and mandate that all debt will be paid by using the Government banknotes, of course a grace period would be needed to get the USD out of circulation, the government could pay off all of it debts in one day, because their USD is the only accepted currency. They would have to force the banks to abandon fractional reserve banking and they can only lend our what they have available to them. Ensure usury must be spent in some way, such as high employee wages, dividends on their shareholders, buildings and such. This would kill the debt and we would go back to a credit currency no a debt currency. All currency is created out of debt, all of it.


I have a question, what politician is advocating for your solution? Who even mentioned it?
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Old May 8th, 2012, 10:57 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Danjb25 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fayt' timestamp='1336431944' post='400139

[quote name='Danjb25' timestamp='1336427748' post='400120']

It is absolutely amazing that you're answer to a debt problem is trillions more debt, at interest no less, how can you even claim to be a economist? Washed up is a very nice label you gave yourself, because your idea of economics is beyond irrational.


You feel better now?


And I bet your previous rant makes you believe won the debate? Your position still rings of someone who has blind faith in a broken system. If the banks create money out of debt to be repaid at interest, how are we not slaves to their controllings of the economy? You didn't watch the video did you?

[/quote]



Yes, "I believe won the debate". You brought in the competitiveness not me.



I wrote if you felt better now because you seemed pretty upset at me, for no reason of course. I thought we were having a civil conversation but according to you I'm just a dumb economist.
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Old May 8th, 2012, 01:05 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Fayt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danjb25' timestamp='1336432934' post='400141

200 billion dollars each year from our taxes are spent on just making interest payments to the debt we've accumulated through the Fed. You can divert from the root cause if you wish but the math remains the same. I cannot believe you suggest to further devalue the dollar in order to give people more money to spend. Money that is worth 96% less than it did in 1913 when the Fed was created. The Eurozone is a bit different than the USD, you don't think that interest rates would skyrocket if the Fed was purposefully keeping them low in a vain effort to make you believe we do not have a currency/debt crisis?


You still think I'm in favor of keeping the Federal Reserve, I've said twice already that I believe it should be nationalized. Taken under the purview of the Treasury Department of the U.S. Government. The only money that's truly federalized is our coins. And once again, we don't have a debt crises. I've just explained that to you. Japan is over 200% of their GDP and they're still selling bonds cheap. We don't have a debt problem we have a JOBS problem. You can't see the debt lower if no one is employed to pay taxes. The rich sure as heck not and they should contribute more, progressively. There's not need to worry about the debt as long it doesn't increase faster than the rate of inflation and hopefully GDP rises at or above the rate of inflation. Our debt can grow indefinitely without bankrupting us or destroying our monetary system.



So stop worrying about our debt and worry about employing people so we can massively pay down that debt you're so worry about. Why doesn't this make sense to you?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Danjb25 View Post
Forcing people to spend by artificially keeping interest rates low while devalueing the dollar keep this economy in a period of stagflation, as I have explained this to you before. Wages not going up, the continued creation of money from no where which not only devalues the dollar but inflate the prices of goods and services is stagflating our economy.


What keeps the economy in a period of stagflation is wages not going up. Money has circulate threw our economy like blood circulates threw our veins. Sometimes a blood transfusion is needed to replace blood doing a serious injury or incident. In this case, the injury is a recession. The body can't do it on its own fast enough Dan and if we wait and/or start cutting out important organs, the body will die.



Metaphorically speaking.



So we need a blood transfusion aka Stimulus. Even if we have to borrow and it's still a better choice than letting the who economy die. I advocate for just raising taxes to pay for our stimulus but you keep wanting to skip that part. Whatever.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Danjb25 View Post
We could pay off our debt extremely simply without creating inflation or deflation. If you'd saw the video you'd know this, so I guess I will have to explain. If the treasury department said tomorrow they would be the sole providers of banknotes and coins and mandate that all debt will be paid by using the Government banknotes, of course a grace period would be needed to get the USD out of circulation, the government could pay off all of it debts in one day, because their USD is the only accepted currency. They would have to force the banks to abandon fractional reserve banking and they can only lend our what they have available to them. Ensure usury must be spent in some way, such as high employee wages, dividends on their shareholders, buildings and such. This would kill the debt and we would go back to a credit currency no a debt currency. All currency is created out of debt, all of it.


I have a question, what politician is advocating for your solution? Who even mentioned it?


Debating you is like talking to a smug brick wall. Metaphorically speaking. Yes someone has, Dr. Ron Paul. I know he can't win the election, and at this point I would be tempted to concede to your idocracy just the watch the house fall apart. You contradict yourself you know that right? If we end the Fed and the Government prints money for it's own spending without interest there is no need for keynesian economics. Why would the government raise taxes if they are the sole proprietor of the nations currency? So long as they do not dilute the economy with too much currency inflation can be regulated. If banks are forced away from fractional reserve banking they cannot make money from nothing, hence currency becomes credit based rather than it's current debt based standings.



Taking the power away from the banks negates the stronghold banks have on America, plain and simple. Keynesian economics only works when banks control the money system. If you take that power away, which you're in favor of, the economy no longer has to be a debt based system. If you want to sell off more of America to keep your keynesian economy, you can, and it probably will, why? Because the banks control the government. So if they are the string pullers in government the best way to save their economy is by their rules, the debt based economic rules.



You really have to take a look at what usury is, and why we have it. You need to understand why all of our money is solely based on debt. And most importantly how a nationalized currency production department destroys the keynesian economy at it foundation. You cannot talk your circles around me and think you've rationalized a "win" based on debted currency that's sole purpose is to enslave those in the economy. It just won't work.



I take it since you've refused to answer me on whether or not you've seen the video, that you haven't. Not only that, but you also refuse to think, or study, economics in any other direction than a Keynesian one. Such a shame too, because although you are misled by the masses, you are an intellegent person.
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Old May 8th, 2012, 03:10 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Danjb25 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fayt' timestamp='1336503304' post='400366

[quote name='Danjb25' timestamp='1336432934' post='400141']

200 billion dollars each year from our taxes are spent on just making interest payments to the debt we've accumulated through the Fed. You can divert from the root cause if you wish but the math remains the same. I cannot believe you suggest to further devalue the dollar in order to give people more money to spend. Money that is worth 96% less than it did in 1913 when the Fed was created. The Eurozone is a bit different than the USD, you don't think that interest rates would skyrocket if the Fed was purposefully keeping them low in a vain effort to make you believe we do not have a currency/debt crisis?


You still think I'm in favor of keeping the Federal Reserve, I've said twice already that I believe it should be nationalized. Taken under the purview of the Treasury Department of the U.S. Government. The only money that's truly federalized is our coins. And once again, we don't have a debt crises. I've just explained that to you. Japan is over 200% of their GDP and they're still selling bonds cheap. We don't have a debt problem we have a JOBS problem. You can't see the debt lower if no one is employed to pay taxes. The rich sure as heck not and they should contribute more, progressively. There's not need to worry about the debt as long it doesn't increase faster than the rate of inflation and hopefully GDP rises at or above the rate of inflation. Our debt can grow indefinitely without bankrupting us or destroying our monetary system.



So stop worrying about our debt and worry about employing people so we can massively pay down that debt you're so worry about. Why doesn't this make sense to you?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Danjb25 View Post
Forcing people to spend by artificially keeping interest rates low while devalueing the dollar keep this economy in a period of stagflation, as I have explained this to you before. Wages not going up, the continued creation of money from no where which not only devalues the dollar but inflate the prices of goods and services is stagflating our economy.


What keeps the economy in a period of stagflation is wages not going up. Money has circulate threw our economy like blood circulates threw our veins. Sometimes a blood transfusion is needed to replace blood doing a serious injury or incident. In this case, the injury is a recession. The body can't do it on its own fast enough Dan and if we wait and/or start cutting out important organs, the body will die.



Metaphorically speaking.



So we need a blood transfusion aka Stimulus. Even if we have to borrow and it's still a better choice than letting the who economy die. I advocate for just raising taxes to pay for our stimulus but you keep wanting to skip that part. Whatever.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Danjb25 View Post
We could pay off our debt extremely simply without creating inflation or deflation. If you'd saw the video you'd know this, so I guess I will have to explain. If the treasury department said tomorrow they would be the sole providers of banknotes and coins and mandate that all debt will be paid by using the Government banknotes, of course a grace period would be needed to get the USD out of circulation, the government could pay off all of it debts in one day, because their USD is the only accepted currency. They would have to force the banks to abandon fractional reserve banking and they can only lend our what they have available to them. Ensure usury must be spent in some way, such as high employee wages, dividends on their shareholders, buildings and such. This would kill the debt and we would go back to a credit currency no a debt currency. All currency is created out of debt, all of it.


I have a question, what politician is advocating for your solution? Who even mentioned it?


Debating you is like talking to a smug brick wall. Metaphorically speaking. Yes someone has, Dr. Ron Paul. I know he can't win the election, and at this point I would be tempted to concede to your idocracy just the watch the house fall apart. You contradict yourself you know that right? If we end the Fed and the Government prints money for it's own spending without interest there is no need for keynesian economics. Why would the government raise taxes if they are the sole proprietor of the nations currency? So long as they do not dilute the economy with too much currency inflation can be regulated. If banks are forced away from fractional reserve banking they cannot make money from nothing, hence currency becomes credit based rather than it's current debt based standings.



Taking the power away from the banks negates the stronghold banks have on America, plain and simple. Keynesian economics only works when banks control the money system. If you take that power away, which you're in favor of, the economy no longer has to be a debt based system. If you want to sell off more of America to keep your keynesian economy, you can, and it probably will, why? Because the banks control the government. So if they are the string pullers in government the best way to save their economy is by their rules, the debt based economic rules.



You really have to take a look at what usury is, and why we have it. You need to understand why all of our money is solely based on debt. And most importantly how a nationalized currency production department destroys the keynesian economy at it foundation. You cannot talk your circles around me and think you've rationalized a "win" based on debted currency that's sole purpose is to enslave those in the economy. It just won't work.



I take it since you've refused to answer me on whether or not you've seen the video, that you haven't. Not only that, but you also refuse to think, or study, economics in any other direction than a Keynesian one. Such a shame too, because although you are misled by the masses, you are an intellegent person.

[/quote]



I'm not sure why you're unnecessarily being rude to me, but I have to ask you to stop. Once again, I believe we should nationalize our Fed and bring it under the purview of the Treasury Department. Only Government should print money, no more fractional reserve banking. No more printing money out of thin air and bailing out our banks. I know how banks make money, they make money on interest. I also know a couple of politicians who want the same thing you and I do. Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich. I don't like Ron Paul or the libertarian idea for what to do with the Fed because they believe that we should leave the interest rates to the quote "Free Market". I prefer Mr. Kucinich views on monetary policy, it's just safer. Ron Paul have the right idea but he's not my type when it comes to dealing with the economy.



Yes, if we were to nationalize our Fed or if each state have their own state bank, taxes will be very low. However, the chances of that happening is low in its self. Only one state have done that so far, North Dakota. However, because of the reality of the present, I advocate for policies that will allocate wealth thought our country via progressive tax being the most important, and lowing the employment rate by stimulating the economy. I prefer paying for stimulating our economy by taxing the rich but if we have to borrow so be it, the benefits still greatly outweigh the negative. We've done it before and we can do it again. The truth is that for over the 200 year of this country, we have never gone over a trillion dollar debt until Reagan in the 1980s.



I advocate for policies that benefits our economy and that includes both dealing with the Fed and Keynesian policies. Both are great economic policies. The truth is that we need to get Americans back to work and we have to go deeper into debt for in order to do so. As you see happening all around the world, austerity measures DON'T WORK. Look at France for example. They voted back in a Democratic Socialist or what you would call, Keynesian. The people there are not economically stupid. The same goes for the Northern European countries, Finland, Denmark, Sweden, and etc.



I've argued with imaginethat a thousand times that yes the Fed need to be dealt with, but if a bill for raising taxes, increase unionization, ending Free Trade, or another Recovery Bill passes the congress and were to be signed by the president, I'll support it 100%. And I only hope you do too. I will not be against anything that's will be against my own best interests because it doesn't deal with the Fed 1st.



I'm not sure how we can disagree? Just please stop unnecessarily bashing me when I'm trying to have a civil conversation.
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Old May 8th, 2012, 04:24 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Danjb25' timestamp='1336511129' post='400448

[quote name='Fayt' timestamp='1336503304' post='400366']

[quote name='Danjb25' timestamp='1336432934' post='400141']

200 billion dollars each year from our taxes are spent on just making interest payments to the debt we've accumulated through the Fed. You can divert from the root cause if you wish but the math remains the same. I cannot believe you suggest to further devalue the dollar in order to give people more money to spend. Money that is worth 96% less than it did in 1913 when the Fed was created. The Eurozone is a bit different than the USD, you don't think that interest rates would skyrocket if the Fed was purposefully keeping them low in a vain effort to make you believe we do not have a currency/debt crisis?


You still think I'm in favor of keeping the Federal Reserve, I've said twice already that I believe it should be nationalized. Taken under the purview of the Treasury Department of the U.S. Government. The only money that's truly federalized is our coins. And once again, we don't have a debt crises. I've just explained that to you. Japan is over 200% of their GDP and they're still selling bonds cheap. We don't have a debt problem we have a JOBS problem. You can't see the debt lower if no one is employed to pay taxes. The rich sure as heck not and they should contribute more, progressively. There's not need to worry about the debt as long it doesn't increase faster than the rate of inflation and hopefully GDP rises at or above the rate of inflation. Our debt can grow indefinitely without bankrupting us or destroying our monetary system.



So stop worrying about our debt and worry about employing people so we can massively pay down that debt you're so worry about. Why doesn't this make sense to you?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Danjb25 View Post
Forcing people to spend by artificially keeping interest rates low while devalueing the dollar keep this economy in a period of stagflation, as I have explained this to you before. Wages not going up, the continued creation of money from no where which not only devalues the dollar but inflate the prices of goods and services is stagflating our economy.


What keeps the economy in a period of stagflation is wages not going up. Money has circulate threw our economy like blood circulates threw our veins. Sometimes a blood transfusion is needed to replace blood doing a serious injury or incident. In this case, the injury is a recession. The body can't do it on its own fast enough Dan and if we wait and/or start cutting out important organs, the body will die.



Metaphorically speaking.



So we need a blood transfusion aka Stimulus. Even if we have to borrow and it's still a better choice than letting the who economy die. I advocate for just raising taxes to pay for our stimulus but you keep wanting to skip that part. Whatever.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Danjb25 View Post
We could pay off our debt extremely simply without creating inflation or deflation. If you'd saw the video you'd know this, so I guess I will have to explain. If the treasury department said tomorrow they would be the sole providers of banknotes and coins and mandate that all debt will be paid by using the Government banknotes, of course a grace period would be needed to get the USD out of circulation, the government could pay off all of it debts in one day, because their USD is the only accepted currency. They would have to force the banks to abandon fractional reserve banking and they can only lend our what they have available to them. Ensure usury must be spent in some way, such as high employee wages, dividends on their shareholders, buildings and such. This would kill the debt and we would go back to a credit currency no a debt currency. All currency is created out of debt, all of it.


I have a question, what politician is advocating for your solution? Who even mentioned it?


Debating you is like talking to a smug brick wall. Metaphorically speaking. Yes someone has, Dr. Ron Paul. I know he can't win the election, and at this point I would be tempted to concede to your idocracy just the watch the house fall apart. You contradict yourself you know that right? If we end the Fed and the Government prints money for it's own spending without interest there is no need for keynesian economics. Why would the government raise taxes if they are the sole proprietor of the nations currency? So long as they do not dilute the economy with too much currency inflation can be regulated. If banks are forced away from fractional reserve banking they cannot make money from nothing, hence currency becomes credit based rather than it's current debt based standings.



Taking the power away from the banks negates the stronghold banks have on America, plain and simple. Keynesian economics only works when banks control the money system. If you take that power away, which you're in favor of, the economy no longer has to be a debt based system. If you want to sell off more of America to keep your keynesian economy, you can, and it probably will, why? Because the banks control the government. So if they are the string pullers in government the best way to save their economy is by their rules, the debt based economic rules.



You really have to take a look at what usury is, and why we have it. You need to understand why all of our money is solely based on debt. And most importantly how a nationalized currency production department destroys the keynesian economy at it foundation. You cannot talk your circles around me and think you've rationalized a "win" based on debted currency that's sole purpose is to enslave those in the economy. It just won't work.



I take it since you've refused to answer me on whether or not you've seen the video, that you haven't. Not only that, but you also refuse to think, or study, economics in any other direction than a Keynesian one. Such a shame too, because although you are misled by the masses, you are an intellegent person.

[/quote]



I'm not sure why you're unnecessarily being rude to me, but I have to ask you to stop. Once again, I believe we should nationalize our Fed and bring it under the purview of the Treasury Department. Only Government should print money, no more fractional reserve banking. No more printing money out of thin air and bailing out our banks. I know how banks make money, they make money on interest. I also know a couple of politicians who want the same thing you and I do. Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich. I don't like Ron Paul or the libertarian idea for what to do with the Fed because they believe that we should leave the interest rates to the quote "Free Market". I prefer Mr. Kucinich views on monetary policy, it's just safer. Ron Paul have the right idea but he's not my type when it comes to dealing with the economy.



Yes, if we were to nationalize our Fed or if each state have their own state bank, taxes will be very low. However, the chances of that happening is low in its self. Only one state have done that so far, North Dakota. However, because of the reality of the present, I advocate for policies that will allocate wealth thought our country via progressive tax being the most important, and lowing the employment rate by stimulating the economy. I prefer paying for stimulating our economy by taxing the rich but if we have to borrow so be it, the benefits still greatly outweigh the negative. We've done it before and we can do it again. The truth is that for over the 200 year of this country, we have never gone over a trillion dollar debt until Reagan in the 1980s.



I advocate for policies that benefits our economy and that includes both dealing with the Fed and Keynesian policies. Both are great economic policies. The truth is that we need to get Americans back to work and we have to go deeper into debt for in order to do so. As you see happening all around the world, austerity measures DON'T WORK. Look at France for example. They voted back in a Democratic Socialist or what you would call, Keynesian. The people there are not economically stupid. The same goes for the Northern European countries, Finland, Denmark, Sweden, and etc.



I've argued with imaginethat a thousand times that yes the Fed need to be dealt with, but if a bill for raising taxes, increase unionization, ending Free Trade, or another Recovery Bill passes the congress and were to be signed by the president, I'll support it 100%. And I only hope you do too. I will not be against anything that's will be against my own best interests because it doesn't deal with the Fed 1st.



I'm not sure how we can disagree? Just please stop unnecessarily bashing me when I'm trying to have a civil conversation.

[/quote]



Ok, you're right I shouldn't have bashed you as such and for that I do apologize. I am a bit perplexed though. You tell me that Keynesian economics is a great means of regulating the economy, however, you support Austrian ideals. The root causes of the boom/bust cycle is fractional reserve banking and central bank ownership of a private entity. Keeping interest rates artificially low only delays the inevitable bust cycle, powered by devaluing the dollar and creating inflation is all counterproductive to the recovery of an economy. We're seeing this right now. Austerity works, people just do not like the fact that they have to live within their means or perhaps below their means during a recession. The temporary hardship buy bad economic policy cannot be solved by a spend & tax policy.



I love the fact you brought up France as your gold nugget of the greatness of Socialism. And I definately appreciate IT bringing up foreign debt as related to national debt. You and I must watch what happens with France in the next few years. My personal guess is that the Obama administration is going to ask Hollande to refrain from implementing his policies he campaigned on until our election year has ended. Unfortunately, my guess is that Obama will get re-elected. Romney is too much of an elitist ass(as if Obama isn't?). But I have a feeling that since the rest of the Eurozone is banking on austerity moves, and France is not, France will probably bring down the whole system.



And austerity that the Eurozone is so far in it's infancy an accurate assessment cannot even be made at this point. The Euro was a horrible idea for europe, it pretty much caused whats happening today. I'm sorry, I cannot feed the hand that's killing me if it gives me only enough to survive. The answer to our debt currency is to go farther into debt to the central bank and for that I can't concede. If their system of debt money keep them billioniares at our expense why support them making ever the more money? To me it's bad policy. Hopefully we'll see some good fiscal austrians in our congress that can rid us of the Fed, move away from fractional banking, and either outlaw usury or regulate it so banks have to invest,or spend their profits.



I'm not holding my breath though, it's going to take a world wide economic meltdown to actually get back to an economic policy that actually makes sense. But seriously, I cannot wait to see what happens in France. Hell, I'll make a deal with you Fayt. If in 4 years of socialist economic policy driven by keynesian thought works in France and they come out of the whole they're in now, I concede to socialism full and complete.
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Old May 9th, 2012, 01:00 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fayt View Post
What represented debt is the republicans spending over $14 trillion dollars. However, I believe we should nationalize our individual state banks or nationalize the Federal Reserve.


Can you take the concession that if France falls due to keynesian economics that we have to give the Austrian school a go? I mean most of your economic thoughts(National $ and 100% Bank reserve) falls into the Austrian realm, you seem to concede to Keynesian because that's our current system. Stimulus packages can work in an Austrian economy because it's controlled by the government not the private banker, and no debt would come of it. Have you started to question why you believe in Keynesian economics yet?
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