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Old March 16th, 2013, 06:50 PM   #11
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Your attempt at a debate is just a provocation of a moderator. Nothing more, nothing less.

The first order of business is to clean up the misrepresentations.

There term “modern monetary economics” is not accurate. This was not an economic field until Milton Friedman (supply side) created the study of monetary economics through monetarism. It has nothing to do with "developed countries, scarce resources, or taking care of citizens." It is the concept of controlling the stability of an economy through the supply of money.

The U.S. was not constrained by the number of dollars in circulation prior to Nixon ending the Gold Standard.

FDR ordered all gold to be turned in and be replaced with paper money. This gold was bought at $20.67 per ounce. Once all the gold was controlled, FDR increased the price of gold to $35 per ounce. This increased the value of the gold in the Federal Reserve by 70%. This allowed FDR to inflate the supply of paper money. Also when other countries converted their gold into U.S. dollars, this increased the amount of dollars in circulation as well, and thus devalued the dollar dramatically.

The U.S. has had only four depressions, and the last one was after FDR suspended the gold standard and increased dollars in circulation.

The statement that we have not had a depression since the gold standard is not factual, as FDR operated without a gold standard when he manipulated the price of gold in the Federal Reserve. The gold standard had nothing to do with the other three recessions. The Depression of 1807 was caused by the Embargo Act of 1807, and ended when Jefferson repealed the act in his last few days in office. And for the record, the U.S. did not start using the gold standard until the Gold Standard Act in 1900. The U.S. did start operating under a de facto gold standard in 1834 after it left the bimetallic standard. The depression of 1815 was caused by, does this seem familiar, government debt and a real estate bubble bursting. This was still before the U.S. went on the gold standard. The depression of 1920 lasted only two year because Harding did the opposite of FDR. Harding cut taxes, cut the budget in half, implemented laissez-faire, and this cut the debt by one-third within two years, and started the roaring 20s. The Great Depression, from 1933 to 1945, worsened without the gold standard.

The full faith credit of the U.S. government is a promise from a pack of politicians, nothing more.

The devaluation [sic] of the dollar goes up and down. The value of the dollar has as much to do with the standard of living and labor abroad as the effects of the cycles of the moon on the dollar. It is supply and demand. Currency is traded on the open market. It gets its value from its demand on the open market in relationship to other currencies, deficits, current account deficits, interest rates, and inflation.
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Last edited by Jimmyb; March 16th, 2013 at 06:59 PM.
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Old March 16th, 2013, 07:11 PM   #12
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Fayt, this is a crummy party you're throwing for me. I'm drinking my own beer, there ain't no hors d'oeuvres, no band, you ain't answered none of my questions, nuthin'......

But I'm here!!
Thanks from Jimmyb

Last edited by imaginethat; March 16th, 2013 at 07:18 PM.
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Old March 16th, 2013, 09:36 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
No.

When currency is not tied to a commodity, central banks can manipulate the economy with fiat money. Money goes from being a medium of exchange to being a political tool. And the Fed has been doing this for 100 years, in secret.

A list of US recessions can be found here: List of recessions in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Perhaps you can explain what you mean by "5 depressions." It would be helpful to the discussion. But according to that list, the US has had 19 recessions since the privately owned Fed took control of currency creation and interest rates, and six recessions since the US abandoned the Bretton Woods Agreement in 1971.

Also, please define "the full faith credit of the U.S. government."
I understand the problem with private control of the printing of our currency. We had that debate many times in the past. I told you before that from the founding of this democratic-republic in 1789 to 1929, we had never gone more than about 12 to 15 years without a major bank panic. Then we put into place banking regulations like Glass Steagall and we went more than 50 years without a major banking crisis. And I'm talking about major crisis where the stock market drops precipitously. That had nothing to do with the Gold Standard.

And I think you're missing my point about the gold standard. Pretty much the gold standard says imaginethat, that if you have a trillion dollar economy and a trillion dollars circulating in currency in the economy, then you have to have a trillion dollars worth of gold. Right? I think I'm right.

So if the gold standard doesn't mean that the value of the currency isn't fixed by the amount of gold that the country have, but instead it means that the value of the currency can be manipulated or changed (regardless of the amount of gold or price of gold) then what good is the gold standard? What good is it if that means that we can inflate the currency with or without it?

And about your questions about recessions, I never mentioned recessions. I mentioned depressions. Before we officially ended the Gold Standard. We had about 5 of these major deflationary turns in our history.
1807-1814
1837-1844
1873-1879
1893-1898
1929-1941

You can google the information pretty easily.
Economic Depressions of the United States
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Old March 16th, 2013, 09:36 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
Fayt, this is a crummy party you're throwing for me. I'm drinking my own beer, there ain't no hors d'oeuvres, no band, you ain't answered none of my questions, nuthin'......

But I'm here!!
I brought jello shots
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Old March 16th, 2013, 10:07 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fayt View Post
I understand the problem with private control of the printing of our currency. We had that debate many times in the past. I told you before that from the founding of this democratic-republic in 1789 to 1929, we had never gone more than about 12 to 15 years without a major bank panic. Then we put into place banking regulations like Glass Steagall and we went more than 50 years without a major banking crisis. And I'm talking about major crisis where the stock market drops precipitously. That had nothing to do with the Gold Standard.

And I think you're missing my point about the gold standard. Pretty much the gold standard says imaginethat, that if you have a trillion dollar economy and a trillion dollars circulating in currency in the economy, then you have to have a trillion dollars worth of gold. Right? I think I'm right.

So if the gold standard doesn't mean that the value of the currency isn't fixed by the amount of gold that the country have, but instead it means that the value of the currency can be manipulated or changed (regardless of the amount of gold or price of gold) then what good is the gold standard? What good is it if that means that we can inflate the currency with or without it?

And about your questions about recessions, I never mentioned recessions. I mentioned depressions. Before we officially ended the Gold Standard. We had about 5 of these major deflationary turns in our history.
1807-1814
1837-1844
1873-1879
1893-1898
1929-1941

You can google the information pretty easily.
Economic Depressions of the United States
There is no causality between regulations in the 1930s and lack of bank failures until the 1980s. And the time between bank panics was not 12-15 years.

Gold could never be fixed by the volume of gold we have: it is a commody and is traded on the market. The price fluctuates with the market. But if we were on the gold standard, when gold is scarce, mining for gold increases, which in turn drops the price. Same if gold is too plentiful. It has a way of regulating itself.

1873 and 1891 were classified as panics, and the depression did not end in 1945.

And for the record, this country was founded in 1776, but if you want to get technical, the Constitution was ratified on June 21, 1788. 1789 is not in the equation.

And for record, depressions are not deflationary.

Last edited by Jimmyb; March 20th, 2013 at 09:27 PM.
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Old March 16th, 2013, 11:45 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fayt View Post
The ability to manage downturns is better enabled due to modern monetary and fiscal policies. Not saying that we can't go into a depression, but that we have better tools to prevent them and recover.
No it has not.. The Dollar is only worth 4 Cents from the 1929 dollar...


That is the falure of he Fiat Currency


1 silver dime is worth $4.00 today

50 gold piece is worth 900 today.

SO FYAT. you have been busted for posting while uniformed.
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Old March 16th, 2013, 11:48 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fayt View Post
This is a debate website and everyone can post their opinions. I'm not a machine, I can't reply to everyone's posts.
You dont reply to others posts. you post false statements like a dog regurgitates its meal then eats it again.

I am still waiting for you to tell me where that Middle Easter Libertarian Dictatorship exists...

I am still waiting for you to show me the the Somalian Libertarian Government.

Oh wait. you couldn't so you just started posting other false statement.
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Old March 17th, 2013, 07:13 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fayt View Post
I understand the problem with private control of the printing of our currency. We had that debate many times in the past. I told you before that from the founding of this democratic-republic in 1789 to 1929, we had never gone more than about 12 to 15 years without a major bank panic. Then we put into place banking regulations like Glass Steagall and we went more than 50 years without a major banking crisis. And I'm talking about major crisis where the stock market drops precipitously. That had nothing to do with the Gold Standard.

And I think you're missing my point about the gold standard. Pretty much the gold standard says imaginethat, that if you have a trillion dollar economy and a trillion dollars circulating in currency in the economy, then you have to have a trillion dollars worth of gold. Right? I think I'm right.

So if the gold standard doesn't mean that the value of the currency isn't fixed by the amount of gold that the country have, but instead it means that the value of the currency can be manipulated or changed (regardless of the amount of gold or price of gold) then what good is the gold standard? What good is it if that means that we can inflate the currency with or without it?

And about your questions about recessions, I never mentioned recessions. I mentioned depressions. Before we officially ended the Gold Standard. We had about 5 of these major deflationary turns in our history.
1807-1814
1837-1844
1873-1879
1893-1898
1929-1941

You can google the information pretty easily.
Economic Depressions of the United States
I think we should drop "how many recessions/depressions" the US has had, because an awful lot depends on how one defines a recession/depression, and googling it, I can come up with all sorts of variations on what one is and how many we've had. However, on and off the gold standard the US has had recessions/depressions. Sometimes, real events like the beginning or ending of a war affected the economy, and other times bankers and other manipulators of currency affected - deliberately and purposefully - the economy.

The Grand Sham that the Fed's originators have successfully pulled off? That's somehow they are smarter than you and me and the market in general, and that if we leave them alone and let them work in private, everything's going to be OK.

You don't have quite right the way the gold standard historically worked. Governments pegged a certain amount of their currency, whether francs or dollars or pounds, to a certain amount of gold. The amount fluctuated. But actually, I like your idea. One day the US announces, We've got $15 trillion in currency floating around and 150 million oz. of gold, so $10,000 US dollars are worth one oz. of gold.

That would "stimulate" the economy, all right. Gold mines would pop up everywhere.

TN, like usual, got his facts slightly off. The 2012 dollar is worth something like four 1913 cents. That shows you what the Federal Reserve has done with our currency. It's worse if you consider the price of an ounce of gold, $20 in 1913 and almost $1600 today.

When you lament "income inequality," you don't see that part of the reason middle class people's income has not increased and the prospects for lower income people lifting themselves up have never been dimmer is the inflation tax, basically today's earners backing up the fiat dollars of yesteryear, or what's euphemistically called "the full faith and credit of the U.S. government." That phrase is a nice way of saying: you're a slave.

Moreover, as you know when loans are created, the currency to repay the loans is not created. This is where the Fed and its itinerant banker co-criminals exert their power. Because they hold the power to create currency, unrestricted by a gold standard or anything else, they can and do pick the winners and losers. Good grief Fayt, who gave the Fed permission to enact "quantitative easing"?

Nobody.

We really cannot discuss a gold standard without discussing the Fed, and the whole system of fractional banking. It's fractional banking that allows bankers, beginning with the Fed, to create currency. How much of your money actually is in the bank?



If you've got less than $12.4 million on deposit, none.

ALL of your money has been lent out, and the bankers are collecting interest on all of it and paying you a pittance. Then, there is the multiplier effect:

Quote:
The multiplier effect depends on the set reserve requirement. So, to calculate the impact of the multiplier effect on the money supply, we start with the amount banks initially take in through deposits and divide this by the reserve ratio. If, for example, the reserve requirement is 20%, for every $100 a customer deposits into a bank, $20 must be kept in reserve. However, the remaining $80 can be loaned out to other bank customers. This $80 is then deposited by these customers into another bank, which in turn must also keep 20%, or $16, in reserve but can lend out the remaining $64. This cycle continues - as more people deposit money and more banks continue lending it - until finally the $100 initially deposited creates a total of $500 ($100 / 0.2) in deposits. This creation of deposits is the multiplier effect.
Multiplier Effect Definition | Investopedia

When the reserve requirement is 0%, basically there is no limit on the amount of loans - currency - that can be made.

The "fiscal cliff" really meant the bankers and their criminal derivative dealers have over-extended themselves. The "sequester" presented two options: reduce spending so that more money is available to pay the bankers, or, raise taxes so more money is available to pay the bankers.

Of course, this very simple fact is completely obfuscated by partisan politics which declares: It's the other side's fault.

No it's not. It's the bankers' fault. Government spending is only a small part of the pyramid they've built ... and work on this particular pyramid began when the US dollar was taken over by private bankers and incrementally cut loose from any connection to gold.
Thanks from Jimmyb, TNVolunteer73 and Kate

Last edited by imaginethat; March 17th, 2013 at 07:17 AM.
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Old March 17th, 2013, 04:59 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
I think we should drop "how many recessions/depressions" the US has had, because an awful lot depends on how one defines a recession/depression, and googling it, I can come up with all sorts of variations on what one is and how many we've had. However, on and off the gold standard the US has had recessions/depressions. Sometimes, real events like the beginning or ending of a war affected the economy, and other times bankers and other manipulators of currency affected - deliberately and purposefully - the economy.

The Grand Sham that the Fed's originators have successfully pulled off? That's somehow they are smarter than you and me and the market in general, and that if we leave them alone and let them work in private, everything's going to be OK.

You don't have quite right the way the gold standard historically worked. Governments pegged a certain amount of their currency, whether francs or dollars or pounds, to a certain amount of gold. The amount fluctuated. But actually, I like your idea. One day the US announces, We've got $15 trillion in currency floating around and 150 million oz. of gold, so $10,000 US dollars are worth one oz. of gold.

That would "stimulate" the economy, all right. Gold mines would pop up everywhere.

TN, like usual, got his facts slightly off. The 2012 dollar is worth something like four 1913 cents. That shows you what the Federal Reserve has done with our currency. It's worse if you consider the price of an ounce of gold, $20 in 1913 and almost $1600 today.

When you lament "income inequality," you don't see that part of the reason middle class people's income has not increased and the prospects for lower income people lifting themselves up have never been dimmer is the inflation tax, basically today's earners backing up the fiat dollars of yesteryear, or what's euphemistically called "the full faith and credit of the U.S. government." That phrase is a nice way of saying: you're a slave.

Moreover, as you know when loans are created, the currency to repay the loans is not created. This is where the Fed and its itinerant banker co-criminals exert their power. Because they hold the power to create currency, unrestricted by a gold standard or anything else, they can and do pick the winners and losers. Good grief Fayt, who gave the Fed permission to enact "quantitative easing"?

Nobody.

We really cannot discuss a gold standard without discussing the Fed, and the whole system of fractional banking. It's fractional banking that allows bankers, beginning with the Fed, to create currency. How much of your money actually is in the bank?



If you've got less than $12.4 million on deposit, none.

ALL of your money has been lent out, and the bankers are collecting interest on all of it and paying you a pittance. Then, there is the multiplier effect:



Multiplier Effect Definition | Investopedia

When the reserve requirement is 0%, basically there is no limit on the amount of loans - currency - that can be made.

The "fiscal cliff" really meant the bankers and their criminal derivative dealers have over-extended themselves. The "sequester" presented two options: reduce spending so that more money is available to pay the bankers, or, raise taxes so more money is available to pay the bankers.

Of course, this very simple fact is completely obfuscated by partisan politics which declares: It's the other side's fault.

No it's not. It's the bankers' fault. Government spending is only a small part of the pyramid they've built ... and work on this particular pyramid began when the US dollar was taken over by private bankers and incrementally cut loose from any connection to gold.
Imaginethat, if we did what you just stated about the oz of gold fluctuating with the amount of dollars floating around in our economy, THEN WHAT'S THE POINT OF HAVING IT? If the price and amount of gold doesn't matter, what is the point of having the gold standard if it means that the value of the currency can be manipulated or changed? It's a rhetorical question because we can inflate our own currency with or without the gold standard. And if the gold standard limits the amount that we can inflate then why not just limit that by law?

And it's not a stimulus. Going gold hunting (if we're not already doing it) is not going to bring the U.S. with about 115 million Americans out of work close to full employment. If anything the gold standard made it harder to stimulate the economy because the gold standard system can constrained the number of dollars we can produced by the number of gold that we have. Which is 1 of the main reasons why every nation abandoned the system. Abandon the system like how many nations abandon barter as a way of national exchange of goods.

And to make matter worse it doesn't prevent depression or recessions. And FYI, there's a difference between a depression and a recession. You even admitted to the fact that on and off the Gold Standard we the U.S. had depressions and recessions. Point taken. However, I just thought it was kind of ironic that we had zero depressions when we left the gold standard in 1971.

You also mentioned that gold is $1600 an ounce now compared to it being cheaper in the past. The price of gold is going up because it's just a change in that particular commodity. When you have libertarians and some conservatives going around saying that the currency will become worthless people's anxiety will drive them to purchase commodities like gold which will obviously drive up the price of gold. Then when people finally understand that the dollar will not collapse then the price of the commodity will drive down. The U.S. government being the issuer of our currency don't have to worry about borrowing from other countries (although I understand that we sometimes do). We create our own currency so we can buy anything that's denominated in dollars. What really constrains us is not the amount of dollars that we have, but the amount of resources that we have.

And the Fed OH BOY THE FED. Again, we should not have private hands manipulating the currency, we should nationalize that power to the treasury department. If had happen then we wouldn't see almost $30 trillion being printed and disappearing around the world. The Fed isn't the cause of our recessions and depression. The cause is with our politicians promoting legislation that reduce demand, increase hot money, and the deregulating our financial sector.

Happy SPD. Hopefully I'm lucky enough that you will agree with me so I can just create the next thread.
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Old March 17th, 2013, 05:23 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Fayt View Post
Imaginethat, if we did what you just stated about the oz of gold fluctuating with the amount of dollars floating around in our economy, THEN WHAT'S THE POINT OF HAVING IT? If the price and amount of gold doesn't matter, what is the point of having the gold standard if it means that the value of the currency can be manipulated or changed? It's a rhetorical question because we can inflate our own currency with or without the gold standard. And if the gold standard limits the amount that we can inflate then why not just limit that by law?

And it's not a stimulus. Going gold hunting (if we're not already doing it) is not going to bring the U.S. with about 115 million Americans out of work close to full employment. If anything the gold standard made it harder to stimulate the economy because the gold standard system can constrained the number of dollars we can produced by the number of gold that we have. Which is 1 of the main reasons why every nation abandoned the system. Abandon the system like how many nations abandon barter as a way of national exchange of goods.

And to make matter worse it doesn't prevent depression or recessions. And FYI, there's a difference between a depression and a recession. You even admitted to the fact that on and off the Gold Standard we the U.S. had depressions and recessions. Point taken. However, I just thought it was kind of ironic that we had zero depressions when we left the gold standard in 1971.

You also mentioned that gold is $1600 an ounce now compared to it being cheaper in the past. The price of gold is going up because it's just a change in that particular commodity. When you have libertarians and some conservatives going around saying that the currency will become worthless people's anxiety will drive them to purchase commodities like gold which will obviously drive up the price of gold. Then when people finally understand that the dollar will not collapse then the price of the commodity will drive down. The U.S. government being the issuer of our currency don't have to worry about borrowing from other countries (although I understand that we sometimes do). We create our own currency so we can buy anything that's denominated in dollars. What really constrains us is not the amount of dollars that we have, but the amount of resources that we have.

And the Fed OH BOY THE FED. Again, we should not have private hands manipulating the currency, we should nationalize that power to the treasury department. If had happen then we wouldn't see almost $30 trillion being printed and disappearing around the world. The Fed isn't the cause of our recessions and depression. The cause is with our politicians promoting legislation that reduce demand, increase hot money, and the deregulating our financial sector.

Happy SPD. Hopefully I'm lucky enough that you will agree with me so I can just create the next thread.

It would take an ACT OF CONGRESS TO CHANGE IT..

not the ACTIONS OF A PANEL OF UNELECTED POWER MONGERS doing so at a whim with NO ACCOUTABLTY to the People.

THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE
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