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Old October 26th, 2015, 04:40 PM   #31
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You didn't actually answer my question about WHY it's such a bad idea. If anything you reinforced my argument.

Of the 2 million people currently in U.S. prisons, 1.4 million of them are non violent drug offenders, many of them serving long mandatory sentences from the Raygun "get tough on drug" days. Looks like we've got more than a "little Singapore" but the drugs keep flowing.

So how about this. Legalize them. ALL of them. Tax, regulate for purity, content and where they can be sold. Like tobacco and liquor stores.

First, access. The truth is kids can get drugs easier than either alcohol or tobacco. Taking it out of the shadows and into the daylight will limit access.

Two, eliminate most overdoses. Most are accidental. You dealer got busted last night so you bought from a different dealer tonight. You had no idea the stuff you bought today was 3 times stronger, or was cut with something more poisonous than the drug it self. If new needles came with each dose we could slow the spread of AIDS and Hep C.

Three, and the most important part. The DoJ says as much as 85% of all violence is drug related. Either dealers fighting over territory. Drug deals gone bad. Or as happened in one neighborhood I lived in, the buyer flashed his cash while making his buy, and the dealer just decided to rob him. Shot him dead in the middle of the street. Also people committing robberies to get money to buy their drugs. The Mexican cartels are increasingly violent and ever more willing to cross the border and bring that violence here as they try to control the trade. Drugs are funding the Taliban in Afghanistan and probably through them numerous other Jihadist organization.

Four, pricing. The last I heard was it cost $300 or so dollars to make a kilo of cocaine. That same kilo sells for $30,000 to as much as $60,000 dollars. WHY ?? Simply because it's illegal. The same is true of most drugs. An OxyContin that costs $5 with a prescription sells for as much as $60 dollars on the street. Even with a 300% to 500% tax, the drugs would be vastly cheaper. Why should we care about the price of drugs ?? WHERE do you think people get money for these drugs ?? They rob and steal.

Five, less violent crime, fewer armed robberies, but also fewer property crimes. Less people breaking into your house or car to steal sellable items to pay for their drugs.

Six, revenue generation and huge savings in government spending. We SPEND billions upon billions of dollars each year fighting the "war on drugs" The cost including policing, courts, prisons, by some estimates well over ONE TRILLION dollars. And yet we stop less than 2% of the drugs flowing into this country. Were also sending billions and billions of dollars OUT of the country since most of the drugs are grown or manufactured over seas. One study said 60% of the profits from the heroine trade is going to the TALIBAN !!! We are now funding the very terrorists we've spent 12 years and another nearly Trillion dollars fighting. How many jobs would be created here if we brought the trade home ??? We grow too much food anyway. We spend billions on farm subsidies. Save that money, let them convert to opium, pot or coca. How many bad guys would we defund if we handled it all here legally.

Lastly. Every time we go after one drug, something new and usually worse takes it's place. We went after the heroine (invented ironically by Bayer Drugs) prices sky rocketed. Then came the flood of cocaine. Again we spent billions in south America fighting the trade. Supplies slowed slightly, prices sky rocketed and then came crack. We went after the crack and now I can't buy a god damned package of allergy medicine with out showing my drivers licenses and having my name put in a national registry, because it's used to make meth !!

There's also an inherent imbalance in the justice system. If you're white and middle class, you get busted, you get the option of rehab. If your poor and brown, you're going to jail.

What we're doing simply isn't working. It's time to try something else. How many times have you and others on here complained that government regulations are "ruining" this or that ?? Let the government regulate the drugs !!!!!!! We'll free up enormous amounts of prison space to put the truly violent. Not only will we save trillions of dollars, we'll actually make money on the trade. We can fund not just rehab but low income medical care for lots of people. Screw Obamacare, just set up clinics all over the country funded by the drug trade.
Ok. Legalize heroin and my personal favorite meth. Go ahead. See what happens in a nation this size.
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Old October 26th, 2015, 06:56 PM   #32
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Ok. Legalize heroin and my personal favorite meth. Go ahead. See what happens in a nation this size.

And what exactly do you think is going to happen ??? Do you honestly believe millions of people are just going to run out and start doing hard drugs ???
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Old October 26th, 2015, 07:02 PM   #33
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And what exactly do you think is going to happen ??? Do you honestly believe millions of people are just going to run out and start doing hard drugs ???
Baltimore, where I live, is ranked #1 in Heroin use. Heroin is illegal. People are going to do drugs whether they're legal or not.
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Old October 26th, 2015, 07:18 PM   #34
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When you add in the "taboo" aspect the odds of abuse increase.
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Old October 26th, 2015, 08:59 PM   #35
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And what exactly do you think is going to happen ??? Do you honestly believe millions of people are just going to run out and start doing hard drugs ???
Trying, or ok we can say doing. Yes, I do. There is a reason no other nation has went full tilt boogey legalizing hard core drugs. Portugal is the closest. A nation of 10.6 million people. Its a dumb idea. For starters, I guess now we got to regulate all of it for quality. So, now the meth bathtub or shake n bake chemist has some competition. Now, he can put his cheaper product out their. Cuz I guarantee ya that red neck meth head will make a batch a lot cheaper than the gubbermint regulated stuff. So, lets be honest, we will never get away from drug enforcement side. Do you really want to legalize something that a person can overdose on, for recreational use? Yeah yeah I get the whole prescription drug thing, but that's prescription drugs. At least there is some regulation in it. So what now. Do you propose a heroin stamp? A monthly limit? Do you even comprehend the regulation you would have to have in place to "legalize" heroin, meth, and cocaine? You really think we should just legalize something, that you can readily overdose on, for recreational purpose? That's just bat shit dumb. I might be very libertarian in a lot of ways, but I don't want people driving drunk, and I do not want someone turning 21 and celebrating by overdosing on "heroin" since its the new rite of passage and legal. Yes, I know its possible to od on booze. But, do you realize how hard that is to do? Its not exactly easy.
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Old October 26th, 2015, 09:09 PM   #36
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T Do you really want to legalize something that a person can overdose on, for recreational use?
You mean like, Idk, alcohol?
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Old October 26th, 2015, 09:17 PM   #37
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...Do you really want to legalize something that a person can overdose on, for recreational use? ...You really think we should just legalize something, that you can readily overdose on, for recreational purpose? ...Yes, I know its possible to od on booze. But, do you realize how hard that is to do? Its not exactly easy.
It's a piece of cake to OD on ethyl alcohol. Many do.

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During 2010–2012, an annual average of 2,221 alcohol poisoning deaths (8.8 deaths per 1 million population) occurred among persons aged ≥15 years in the United States. Of those deaths, 1,681 (75.7%) involved adults aged 35–64 years, and 1,696 (76.4%) involved men. Although non-Hispanic whites accounted for the majority of alcohol poisoning deaths (67.5%; 1,500 deaths), the highest age-adjusted death rate was among American Indians/Alaska Natives (49.1 per 1 million). The age-adjusted rate of alcohol poisoning deaths in states ranged from 5.3 per 1 million in Alabama to 46.5 per 1 million in Alaska.

...Excessive alcohol use accounted for an average of one in 10 deaths among working-age adults (aged 20–64 years) in the United States each year during 2006–2010, and cost the United States $223.5 billion in 2006. Binge drinking, defined as consuming four or more drinks for women or five or more drinks for men on an occasion, was responsible for more than half of these deaths and three fourths of the economic costs. Binge drinking also is responsible for many health and social problems, including alcohol poisoning. Yet, approximately 38 million U.S. adults report binge drinking an average of four times per month, and consume an average of eight drinks per binge episode. Most binge drinkers (90%) are not alcohol dependent.
Vital Signs: Alcohol Poisoning Deaths ? United States, 2010?2012
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Old October 26th, 2015, 10:20 PM   #38
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Trying, or ok we can say doing. Yes, I do. There is a reason no other nation has went full tilt boogey legalizing hard core drugs. Portugal is the closest. A nation of 10.6 million people. Its a dumb idea. For starters, I guess now we got to regulate all of it for quality. So, now the meth bathtub or shake n bake chemist has some competition. Now, he can put his cheaper product out their. Cuz I guarantee ya that red neck meth head will make a batch a lot cheaper than the gubbermint regulated stuff. So, lets be honest, we will never get away from drug enforcement side. Do you really want to legalize something that a person can overdose on, for recreational use? Yeah yeah I get the whole prescription drug thing, but that's prescription drugs. At least there is some regulation in it. So what now. Do you propose a heroin stamp? A monthly limit? Do you even comprehend the regulation you would have to have in place to "legalize" heroin, meth, and cocaine? You really think we should just legalize something, that you can readily overdose on, for recreational purpose? That's just bat shit dumb. I might be very libertarian in a lot of ways, but I don't want people driving drunk, and I do not want someone turning 21 and celebrating by overdosing on "heroin" since its the new rite of passage and legal. Yes, I know its possible to od on booze. But, do you realize how hard that is to do? Its not exactly easy.
Tobacco kills 400,000 people each year. Granted not overnight but still. Alcohol kills another 88,000 per year. Bad diets kill more than 500,000 each year. DOCTORS kill more than 200,000 each year. Automobile crashes kill another 30,000, many of those caused by alcohol. Prescription drugs take out another 23,000. The point is, legal or not people are going to do them. We have PROVEN we can't stop them.

The FDA could write guidelines for purity and content in a matter of weeks. Every major pharma company would be lining up to produce consumer grade products. Could you still OD ?? sure. But the chances go WAY down when you can buy clearly labeled product and KNOW what you're taking. If you still manage to do so, then you were a Darwin award candidate to begin with.

Most of the home made shit will quickly go away. For the very simple reason, it WON'T PAY. The ONLY reason drugs are as expensive as they are is because they are ILLEGAL. The only reason people make and sell them is because it is so profitable to do so. Even heavily taxed the legal drugs will be much cheaper. Take the profit away and they have no incentive to produce it. It's not like we have a booming trade in illegal cigarettes or alcohol any more. Another thing that will drive prices down is economy of scale in manufacturing. The largest illegal drug producer in the world is miniscule compared to a Pfizer or any other large pharmaceutical companies operations. That kilo of cocaine that currently costs $300 to manufacture, could probably be made for around $100 or less with large scale production.

They say the first sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result. It's been 100 years since we outlawed drugs. Maybe we need to try something else. Just because no one else has done is irrelevant.
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Last edited by BubbaJones; October 26th, 2015 at 10:30 PM.
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Old October 26th, 2015, 11:42 PM   #39
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Just to make sure I am understanding this logic
1. Prescription drugs kill more people than illegal drugs do.
2. Prescription drugs that are opiates are the big winner are the most popular.
3. legalizing opium/heroin will have no affect, since people are already overdosing on prescription drugs.
4. Making it legal would actually decrease drug use and od rate. Because with all the people who prescription shop to get opiates, there would be no way they would immediately all jump at the now much easier to get legal drugs.
5. Making illegal drugs legal, and removing the hurdle to aquire them, will immediately lower the addiction rate! And, if they are cheaper than pharmaceuticals, people would start saving money and self medicating! Brilliant!

Now does that sum up the argument for why we should make smack, crack, coke and meth all over the counter use it all you want kind of warm and fuzzy legal?
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Old October 27th, 2015, 12:11 AM   #40
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It's a piece of cake to OD on ethyl alcohol. Many do.



Vital Signs: Alcohol Poisoning Deaths ? United States, 2010?2012


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Evidence-based strategies for preventing excessive drinking (e.g., regulating alcohol outlet density and preventing illegal alcohol sales in retail settings) could reduce alcohol poisoning deaths by reducing the prevalence, frequency, and intensity of binge drinking.
Interesting enough, I dont see the strategy in place to increase the means to acquire alcohol. Thats strange. Haven't we just proven that if you make it more readily available then the number of deaths and addiction will go down. God the CDC is dumb. Actually the more I read the CDC report, the more I wonder why you posted it. You realize you just made the argument why making hard core drugs, which in fact are still killing more people than alcohol poisoning, readily available will make it worse.

Alcohol is number five on the list. Unspecified is strange. But, so far, the argument I am seeing to make all drugs just legal is making my argument for me. Basically, your saying alcohol is number five on the list and its legal. So therefore, if we just legalize the drugs that are above it as recreational, it will make things better. Just think that through real slow like.


Last edited by imaginethat; October 27th, 2015 at 06:08 AM.
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