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Old October 27th, 2015, 12:15 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Gordy View Post
Baltimore, where I live, is ranked #1 in Heroin use. Heroin is illegal. People are going to do drugs whether they're legal or not.
Actually, interesting enough, I dont see that same logic applied by liberals when it comes to firearms
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Old October 27th, 2015, 06:06 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by coke View Post
Just to make sure I am understanding this logic
1. Prescription drugs kill more people than illegal drugs do.
2. Prescription drugs that are opiates are the big winner are the most popular.
3. legalizing opium/heroin will have no affect, since people are already overdosing on prescription drugs.
4. Making it legal would actually decrease drug use and od rate. Because with all the people who prescription shop to get opiates, there would be no way they would immediately all jump at the now much easier to get legal drugs.
5. Making illegal drugs legal, and removing the hurdle to aquire them, will immediately lower the addiction rate! And, if they are cheaper than pharmaceuticals, people would start saving money and self medicating! Brilliant!

Now does that sum up the argument for why we should make smack, crack, coke and meth all over the counter use it all you want kind of warm and fuzzy legal?
You left out the parts about all the violent crime and theft, the diversion of law enforcement resources, and the cost of incarceration. But all those points have been raised in this thread already.
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Old October 27th, 2015, 06:15 AM   #43
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Interesting enough, I dont see the strategy in place to increase the means to acquire alcohol. Thats strange. Haven't we just proven that if you make it more readily available then the number of deaths and addiction will go down. God the CDC is dumb. Actually the more I read the CDC report, the more I wonder why you posted it. You realize you just made the argument why making hard core drugs, which in fact are still killing more people than alcohol poisoning, readily available will make it worse.

Alcohol is number five on the list. Unspecified is strange. But, so far, the argument I am seeing to make all drugs just legal is making my argument for me. Basically, your saying alcohol is number five on the list and its legal. So therefore, if we just legalize the drugs that are above it as recreational, it will make things better. Just think that through real slow like.

You're on record as approving Singapore's approach, i.e. killing people for drug use or trafficking, even cannabis and hashish, so I can't see any point in discussing with you anything related to the failure of the War on Drugs, the subject of the OP, when your answer is to go nuclear.
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Old October 27th, 2015, 06:34 AM   #44
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Actually, interesting enough, I dont see that same logic applied by liberals when it comes to firearms
That's because liberals are retarded.
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Old October 27th, 2015, 08:21 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
"Tremendous" may be a little bit euphemistic.

Anyway, inch by inch....



https://news.vice.com/article/americ...endous-failure
What we need are more drug treatment facilities paid for for those who can't pay and many more jobs. Demand it. Vote out those who set this up to give more money to the MIC.
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Old October 27th, 2015, 09:38 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by coke View Post
Just to make sure I am understanding this logic
1. Prescription drugs kill more people than illegal drugs do.
2. Prescription drugs that are opiates are the big winner are the most popular.
3. legalizing opium/heroin will have no affect, since people are already overdosing on prescription drugs.
4. Making it legal would actually decrease drug use and od rate. Because with all the people who prescription shop to get opiates, there would be no way they would immediately all jump at the now much easier to get legal drugs.
5. Making illegal drugs legal, and removing the hurdle to aquire them, will immediately lower the addiction rate! And, if they are cheaper than pharmaceuticals, people would start saving money and self medicating! Brilliant!

Now does that sum up the argument for why we should make smack, crack, coke and meth all over the counter use it all you want kind of warm and fuzzy legal?
OOOHHH back the fuck up asshole and take a reading comprehension class while you're at it. I NEVER SAID it would reduce the drug use !!!! I do believe it may reduce the OD rates. I absolutely believe it will reduce, possibly greatly reduce, the associated violence and property crimes.

I just don't think we're going to see a massive explosion in drug use. I don't think millions of average Joes and Janes are going to run out and start using hard drugs. If it were legal I might take a toke every now and then. Might keep an Oxy on hand for when I get hit with a migraine. I've been hording a half dozen or so for a few years now just in case.
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Old October 27th, 2015, 10:13 AM   #47
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Cokes chart is interesting

Drug overdoses kill 6 times more people in the US then Guns.

25/100,000 drug overdoses

4.3/100,000 for firearms
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Old October 27th, 2015, 08:17 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
You're on record as approving Singapore's approach, i.e. killing people for drug use or trafficking, even cannabis and hashish, so I can't see any point in discussing with you anything related to the failure of the War on Drugs, the subject of the OP, when your answer is to go nuclear.
You obviously did not read what I said. Or, you chose to ignore it to input your own narrative. Just to keep it honest. Here is what I said.


Quote:
The choice we have is some of both. Legalize Marijuana. Get it out of the dark. Demand the DOJ quit paying local law enforcement cash rewards for "drug seizures". Take that money and put it into rehab. No more civil forfeiture. Now, throw a little Singapore in it, and actually make mandatory hard core sentences for people who actually have over (fill in the blank amount?) and our dealing.

Last edited by coke; October 27th, 2015 at 08:24 PM.
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Old October 27th, 2015, 08:29 PM   #49
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I think we should legalize marijuana and industrial hemp, outlaw the promotion of drug use. Mandatory jail time for Hollywood producers and media moguls who demonstrate to adolescents that it's cool to do drugs.
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Old October 27th, 2015, 09:07 PM   #50
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You didn't actually answer my question about WHY it's such a bad idea. If anything you reinforced my argument.

Of the 2 million people currently in U.S. prisons, 1.4 million of them are non violent drug offenders, many of them serving long mandatory sentences from the Raygun "get tough on drug" days. Looks like we've got more than a "little Singapore" but the drugs keep flowing.

So how about this. Legalize them. ALL of them. Tax, regulate for purity, content and where they can be sold. Like tobacco and liquor stores.

First, access. The truth is kids can get drugs easier than either alcohol or tobacco. Taking it out of the shadows and into the daylight will limit access.

Two, eliminate most overdoses. Most are accidental. You dealer got busted last night so you bought from a different dealer tonight. You had no idea the stuff you bought today was 3 times stronger, or was cut with something more poisonous than the drug it self. If new needles came with each dose we could slow the spread of AIDS and Hep C.

Three, and the most important part. The DoJ says as much as 85% of all violence is drug related. Either dealers fighting over territory. Drug deals gone bad. Or as happened in one neighborhood I lived in, the buyer flashed his cash while making his buy, and the dealer just decided to rob him. Shot him dead in the middle of the street. Also people committing robberies to get money to buy their drugs. The Mexican cartels are increasingly violent and ever more willing to cross the border and bring that violence here as they try to control the trade. Drugs are funding the Taliban in Afghanistan and probably through them numerous other Jihadist organization.

Four, pricing. The last I heard was it cost $300 or so dollars to make a kilo of cocaine. That same kilo sells for $30,000 to as much as $60,000 dollars. WHY ?? Simply because it's illegal. The same is true of most drugs. An OxyContin that costs $5 with a prescription sells for as much as $60 dollars on the street. Even with a 300% to 500% tax, the drugs would be vastly cheaper. Why should we care about the price of drugs ?? WHERE do you think people get money for these drugs ?? They rob and steal.

Five, less violent crime, fewer armed robberies, but also fewer property crimes. Less people breaking into your house or car to steal sellable items to pay for their drugs.

Six, revenue generation and huge savings in government spending. We SPEND billions upon billions of dollars each year fighting the "war on drugs" The cost including policing, courts, prisons, by some estimates well over ONE TRILLION dollars. And yet we stop less than 2% of the drugs flowing into this country. Were also sending billions and billions of dollars OUT of the country since most of the drugs are grown or manufactured over seas. One study said 60% of the profits from the heroine trade is going to the TALIBAN !!! We are now funding the very terrorists we've spent 12 years and another nearly Trillion dollars fighting. How many jobs would be created here if we brought the trade home ??? We grow too much food anyway. We spend billions on farm subsidies. Save that money, let them convert to opium, pot or coca. How many bad guys would we defund if we handled it all here legally.

Lastly. Every time we go after one drug, something new and usually worse takes it's place. We went after the heroine (invented ironically by Bayer Drugs) prices sky rocketed. Then came the flood of cocaine. Again we spent billions in south America fighting the trade. Supplies slowed slightly, prices sky rocketed and then came crack. We went after the crack and now I can't buy a god damned package of allergy medicine with out showing my drivers licenses and having my name put in a national registry, because it's used to make meth !!

There's also an inherent imbalance in the justice system. If you're white and middle class, you get busted, you get the option of rehab. If your poor and brown, you're going to jail.

What we're doing simply isn't working. It's time to try something else. How many times have you and others on here complained that government regulations are "ruining" this or that ?? Let the government regulate the drugs !!!!!!! We'll free up enormous amounts of prison space to put the truly violent. Not only will we save trillions of dollars, we'll actually make money on the trade. We can fund not just rehab but low income medical care for lots of people. Screw Obamacare, just set up clinics all over the country funded by the drug trade.
Quote:
1.4 million of them are non violent drug offenders, many of them serving long mandatory sentences from the Raygun "get tough on drug" days. Looks like we've got more than a "little Singapore" but the drugs keep flowing.
And how many of that 1.4 million are serving on a first offense crime? Exactly. I can find that figure if you really want me to. Do you really want me to? I do support Rand Paul's initiative to not let one mistake destroy a persons life. At the same time, that figure that your using is misleading.

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So how about this. Legalize them. ALL of them. Tax, regulate for purity, content and where they can be sold. Like tobacco and liquor stores.
Regulate for purity? Regulate amount? How can you tell someone how much heroin to shoot before they overdose? How much cocaine to do before the overdose? I posted a chart. Alcohol is kinda far down on the od meter. How about no, lets not legalize heroin and cocaine and meth for good times at the local bar. By the way, another point since were all about demonizing alcohol to prove this point. Alcohol is only legal if the local jurisdiction says it is. Just so you understand that.

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First, access. The truth is kids can get drugs easier than either alcohol or tobacco. Taking it out of the shadows and into the daylight will limit access.
Some kids, not all kids. Kids get alcohol all the time to. Your point is what? Since its illegal for underage kids to have alcohol, putting drugs in the same light will make it where kids cant get that either? Kind of reminds me of gun free zone..

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Two, eliminate most overdoses. Most are accidental. You dealer got busted last night so you bought from a different dealer tonight. You had no idea the stuff you bought today was 3 times stronger, or was cut with something more poisonous than the drug it self. If new needles came with each dose we could slow the spread of AIDS and Hep C.
Yeah, most are accidental. So are most alcohol over doses. Hey, but wait, alcohol is regulated. So, there cant be any overdoses with alcohol right? I mean since your argument is the regulation fairy will sprinkle fairy dust on all the meth and cocaine and heroin and make it od proof.

Quote:
Four, pricing. The last I heard was it cost $300 or so dollars to make a kilo of cocaine. That same kilo sells for $30,000 to as much as $60,000 dollars. WHY ?? Simply because it's illegal. The same is true of most drugs. An OxyContin that costs $5 with a prescription sells for as much as $60 dollars on the street. Even with a 300% to 500% tax, the drugs would be vastly cheaper. Why should we care about the price of drugs ?? WHERE do you think people get money for these drugs ?? They rob and steal.
Yeah, because the government has a great reputation for driving the price down of whatever they regulate. See how great it has worked out for prescription drugs. The same with alcohol. There is no one making moonshine because its cheaper than the government taxed stuff. Nope, not at all. Does not exist. Here is another fail in your argument. Someone who is stealing for drug money is addicted. Do you really think there is much difference in 5 bucks or 20 bucks? Make it cheaper and that addict just gets more, and then wants more. At least they wont ever od though due to the government regulation and all. Just seeing the stupidity in your argument. We can make it cheaper. That will stop addicts from stealing, because obviously making it cheaper will allow addicts to kick their addiction and not crave more and more.

Quote:
Three, and the most important part. The DoJ says as much as 85% of all violence is drug related. Either dealers fighting over territory. Drug deals gone bad. Or as happened in one neighborhood I lived in, the buyer flashed his cash while making his buy, and the dealer just decided to rob him. Shot him dead in the middle of the street. Also people committing robberies to get money to buy their drugs. The Mexican cartels are increasingly violent and ever more willing to cross the border and bring that violence here as they try to control the trade. Drugs are funding the Taliban in Afghanistan and probably through them numerous other Jihadist organization.
That is probably the best argument you have so far. But, again on the violence part. You forget alcohol. Alcohol is listed as drug in that 85% number. Now, you want to add to it by legalizing all the drugs. You see one side of the equation rather well. The trade. You fail to see the use side of the equation. Legal or not, abused drugs in any form lead to violence and bad social behavior. Why cant we spend money on mandatory rehab for people caught with illegal drugs,and not ruin their records for going into rehab. That is a much better approach than just make it all legal.

Quote:
Six, revenue generation and huge savings in government spending. We SPEND billions upon billions of dollars each year fighting the "war on drugs" The cost including policing, courts, prisons, by some estimates well over ONE TRILLION dollars. And yet we stop less than 2% of the drugs flowing into this country. Were also sending billions and billions of dollars OUT of the country since most of the drugs are grown or manufactured over seas. One study said 60% of the profits from the heroine trade is going to the TALIBAN !!! We are now funding the very terrorists we've spent 12 years and another nearly Trillion dollars fighting. How many jobs would be created here if we brought the trade home ??? We grow too much food anyway. We spend billions on farm subsidies. Save that money, let them convert to opium, pot or coca. How many bad guys would we defund if we handled it all here legally.
Ok. For starters. The drugs is a great money maker is fail. The reason its fail is because you have to encourage drug use. You have to advertise it. You have to promote it. People die of heroin overdose. People die of meth and cocaine overdose. You are not going to regulate that out of people. Yeah, there is alot of pissed away money on the drug war. I agree. Its because of this dumb Miami Vice mentality of letting the user go and going after the dealer and the big haul. Its because of civil forfeiture and cash reward system in place for local police. No more chasing the dealer. Start putting every user in rehab. Lets channel that money toward that. Starve the dealer by taking away the customer. Rehab rehab rehab is the key. The ones who are repeat offenders, then yes, sorry but they were given a free opportunity by society. Enough is enough.

You carry on about all the money it can bring in. Yet, you do not talk about the expense of actually regulating the content, the growing and distribution of these drugs. You make it to hard, and people just go back to the street instead of jumping through the hoops. You act like the price of street drugs can not come down in price either. Bullshit. You let the state become the dealer, and ramp up all that great revenue tax on it. See how quick El Jeffe lowers the price of cocaine. So, what is your answer then? Stop it at the border? You own argument says we only stop2%.

Quote:
Lastly. Every time we go after one drug, something new and usually worse takes it's place. We went after the heroine (invented ironically by Bayer Drugs) prices sky rocketed. Then came the flood of cocaine. Again we spent billions in south America fighting the trade. Supplies slowed slightly, prices sky rocketed and then came crack. We went after the crack and now I can't buy a god damned package of allergy medicine with out showing my drivers licenses and having my name put in a national registry, because it's used to make meth !!
Thanks again for making my argument for me. The allergy medicine is due to meth, not crack. Anyway, every time the price of those drugs goes high the usage drops.

Anyway, here is a link to a well written article that embodies some of the points all of us have made. I recommend you read it. It covers everything we discuss, its rational and for the most part it makes sense.

http://www.mcleveland.org/publicatio...Markets.CV.pdf
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