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Old January 15th, 2017, 07:14 AM   #41
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Remove all of the income tax and all working people will receive a 30% raise.
What country you like to live in where that's working?
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Old January 15th, 2017, 09:26 AM   #42
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Are mother's allowance benefits that great where you live, that women are having children just so they can collect benefits?
Yes

America.
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Old January 15th, 2017, 09:28 AM   #43
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What country you like to live in where that's working?
Are you implying that the socialist experiment that you are championing is working?
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Old January 15th, 2017, 09:58 AM   #44
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Yes

America.
And does it still seem that way when you take your meds?
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Old January 15th, 2017, 10:54 AM   #45
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Are you implying that the socialist experiment that you are championing is working?
Just as I thought, no answer. Just a bunch of ideas from your behind with no proof.
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Old January 15th, 2017, 01:32 PM   #46
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Yes

America.
And I'm not even going to bother wading in to this cow pasture, cause simple observation of the real news, informs me that there are too many homeless people with children..and still increasing in most large cities in America..for that simple statement to be true, or have any connection with reality!

It seems to me that the growth in libertarian thinking( which was an extreme fringe when I was young)has been fueled by many factors:
1. Temporary success of neoliberal policies and globalization...which have depleted finances and resources down faster.
2. Steady, non-stop propaganda in entertainment and advertising industries promoting only individualistic themes.
3. The massive, corporate-funded program of brainwashing youth entering colleges and universities by the gradual takeover of economics and business departments, replacing staff with Chicago-School type acolytes. Give a listen to economist-Richard D. Wolff on this topic...as he has lived through the transformation during his long career in academia.
4. The 2nd part of that brainwashing strategy: the creation of neoliberal policy think tanks and journals that pay propagandists to just get their messages aired to misinform the broader, mostly uneducated public.
5. The computer/internet revolution. This was the unexpected bonus for libertarians, as psychologists are just coming to grips now with how much the internet and hand-held devices have fractured what is left of real social interaction of many, especially younger people.

The problem with today's libertarian paradise is that radical individualism is not a desirable characteristic during hard times...when people have to share and cooperate. This has already been a problem in many of the US's collapsed inner cities, as activists are trying to turn things around in abandoned cities like Detroit, by slowly bringing people together into cooperatives..especially community gardening...made easy with all the abandoned real estate!

Anyway, someone I've been reading and following closely for the past 8 to 10 years is Russian-born computer engineer and economic policy analyst- Dmitri Orlov; who has written several books describing life in Russia during the collapse of the Soviet Union and how he expects collapse in America to play out, once overleveraged debt levels and militarization costs collapses in on itself.
https://www.amazon.com/Reinventing-C.../dp/0865716854

Orlov's central point in "Reinventing Collapse" is that as the Soviet Union went into steep decline in the 80's, the role of "Soviet" local councils were ready to step up and fill much of the void left when they went through total system collapse. If it hadn't been for communist-thinking at the local level and cooperation for community needs, there would have been famine and anarchy on a grand scale....which is somewhat what Orlov expects to happen in most of America because of the derision for cooperation and elevation of individualism and selfishness.
http://cluborlov.blogspot.ca/

We'll all see what happens in the future, but my study of cultural and paleo-anthropology in recent years, informs me that community outweighed all of our modern notions of individualism and individual achievement until very recent historical times! And societies have to be guaranteed a level of comfort to make it work. When that comfort level doesn't exist, who knows! All hell might break loose!
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Old January 15th, 2017, 03:12 PM   #47
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Just as I thought, no answer. Just a bunch of ideas from your behind with no proof.

I am glad that you understand that it does not work.



Last edited by Sabcat; January 15th, 2017 at 03:15 PM.
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Old January 16th, 2017, 06:55 AM   #48
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Putting the stimulus in place stimulated the economy, just putting a program in place to buy clunkers, meant auto makers hiring and ramping up production, before the program bought it's first clunker.
Funding programs causes hiring, the money gets spent later, but the effect is almost immediate.
And the economy was deep in the hole in 2009, it had shrunk quite a bit from the crash, and it wasn't a typical recession, caused by high inventories, where the economy shrinks a bit until inventories fall and then cranks up.
This was a collapse of the credit system. There was not a lot of credit to finance the expansion of the economy.
More stimulus would have meant a stronger, faster economy.
We have another recession coming, watch closely how it works.
How much more stimulus did we need? We've had $14 trillion in economic stimulus in the past eight years. $9 trillion of fiscal stimulus and over $5 trillion of monetary stimulus. That $14 trillion, including $9 trillion of debt, only $4 trillion of economic expansion, that's pitiful.
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Old January 16th, 2017, 07:16 AM   #49
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How much more stimulus did we need? We've had $14 trillion in economic stimulus in the past eight years. $9 trillion of fiscal stimulus and over $5 trillion of monetary stimulus. That $14 trillion, including $9 trillion of debt, only $4 trillion of economic expansion, that's pitiful.
OK, you say we've had 14 trillion in stimulus, let's assume whatever you are counting to get to that number was 7 Trillion, would that have produced better results? Would 28 trillion have produced better results?

Throwing out numbers, and assuming those numbers mean something, doesn't really make an argument.

There were arguments made at the time, that even the small amount of stimulus would trigger hyperinflation, that was wrong, there is no hyperinflation happening.
There were arguments made that the amount of stimulus was insufficient to return the economy quickly to full employment.
While the economy did grow, it never grew quickly, so whether the premise that the small size of the stimulus explains what happened is correct or not, the prediction played out.

Do you have a prediction to make? If it doesn't play out will it effect your worldview, or do you exclude facts from your thinking process?
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Old January 16th, 2017, 07:31 AM   #50
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OK, you say we've had 14 trillion in stimulus, let's assume whatever you are counting to get to that number was 7 Trillion, would that have produced better results? Would 28 trillion have produced better results?

Throwing out numbers, and assuming those numbers mean something, doesn't really make an argument.

There were arguments made at the time, that even the small amount of stimulus would trigger hyperinflation, that was wrong, there is no hyperinflation happening.
There were arguments made that the amount of stimulus was insufficient to return the economy quickly to full employment.
While the economy did grow, it never grew quickly, so whether the premise that the small size of the stimulus explains what happened is correct or not, the prediction played out.

Do you have a prediction to make? If it doesn't play out will it effect your worldview, or do you exclude facts from your thinking process?
You are whining that the problem with the Obamaconomy is that it didn't receive enough stimulus, which isn't true, it has received $14 trillion in stimulus and Obama will be lucky to end up with 2% growth for 2016, down from the anemic 2.4% in the preceding two years.
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