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Old January 16th, 2017, 07:16 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
You are whining that the problem with the Obamaconomy is that it didn't receive enough stimulus, which isn't true, it has received $14 trillion in stimulus and Obama will be lucky to end up with 2% growth for 2016, down from the anemic 2.4% in the preceding two years.
You are just repeating numbers and claiming that that proves something.
For almost the entire lifetime of the capitalist system, growth has averaged less than 2%, for the last 500 years anyway.
The aberration to this was the 20th century, and the difference between the 20th century and the rest of the last 500 years was huge social, political and economic upheaval. The assault on accumulated wealth, is what brought about higher growth, the destruction of established hierarchies, is what allowed upward mobility.
Indeed, the return of conservative stability as a goal, brought on the stagnation that you complain about.
Since the Reagan-Thatcher ideas of lower taxes and less government have spread, upward mobility has declined, the middle class has been hollowed out, growth has slowed, inequality in the distribution of wealth has increased.

The seeds of populism have been sewn.
Oh, that may have taken the form of Trump this time, but it also took the form of Sanders, and while the GOP may claim that Trump is the people affirming conservative principals, both Trump and Sanders have one big thing in common, the idea that the system is corrupt, and the system needs to be drastically changed.
And if Trump doesn't deliver that, Populism won't disappear, it will just tilt to the left, to see if Elizabeth Warren and the Democrats can deliver the change.


People want a change, and not just American people, people around the world are looking to upset the apple cart, to reshuffle the cards for a new deal, to tip over the Monopoly board, and start a new game.

And here's an example and a huge hint, this change that people want, it's not the repeal of ObamaCare, that is not even part of the equation.
The only thing they want in that arena is good health care, for less money.
They don't care what you call it, they don't care how it works, they just want to pay less, and get what they need.
This means some people paying more.
The populists want the few extremely wealthy to pay more, and the masses to pay less. The GOP wants the extremely wealthy to pay less and the masses to pay more.
Trump wants to please people.
Can you see why that train is going to go off the rails?
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Old January 16th, 2017, 09:10 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by goober View Post
You are just repeating numbers and claiming that that proves something.
For almost the entire lifetime of the capitalist system, growth has averaged less than 2%, for the last 500 years anyway.
The aberration to this was the 20th century, and the difference between the 20th century and the rest of the last 500 years was huge social, political and economic upheaval. The assault on accumulated wealth, is what brought about higher growth, the destruction of established hierarchies, is what allowed upward mobility.
Indeed, the return of conservative stability as a goal, brought on the stagnation that you complain about.
Since the Reagan-Thatcher ideas of lower taxes and less government have spread, upward mobility has declined, the middle class has been hollowed out, growth has slowed, inequality in the distribution of wealth has increased.

The seeds of populism have been sewn.
Oh, that may have taken the form of Trump this time, but it also took the form of Sanders, and while the GOP may claim that Trump is the people affirming conservative principals, both Trump and Sanders have one big thing in common, the idea that the system is corrupt, and the system needs to be drastically changed.
And if Trump doesn't deliver that, Populism won't disappear, it will just tilt to the left, to see if Elizabeth Warren and the Democrats can deliver the change.


People want a change, and not just American people, people around the world are looking to upset the apple cart, to reshuffle the cards for a new deal, to tip over the Monopoly board, and start a new game.

And here's an example and a huge hint, this change that people want, it's not the repeal of ObamaCare, that is not even part of the equation.
The only thing they want in that arena is good health care, for less money.
They don't care what you call it, they don't care how it works, they just want to pay less, and get what they need.
This means some people paying more.
The populists want the few extremely wealthy to pay more, and the masses to pay less. The GOP wants the extremely wealthy to pay less and the masses to pay more.
Trump wants to please people.
Can you see why that train is going to go off the rails?
We enjoyed a lot of prosperity under Reagan, across the board. Reagan taxed workers and uber rich investors are the same rate. First thing Bill Clinton did was to increase tax rates on workers. Then he cut tax rates on wealthy investors. When Clinton left office the max rate on workers was over twice the rate that rich investors did.

People want the opportunity to work and get ahead and be independent. They don't want Obamacare which takes away their Medicaid if they get a job or pushes them by removing subsidies if they get a better job.

The middle class is tired of paying out 50% of their income in cumulative taxes and seeing the Dem leadership focused on issues like which bathroom Catilyn Jenner is using or the effects of cow farts on global warming.
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Old January 16th, 2017, 09:39 AM   #53
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I am glad that you understand that it does not work.


You said quote:

"Remove all of the income tax and all working people will receive a 30% raise."

So where's your evidence that this will work?
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Old January 16th, 2017, 10:50 AM   #54
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I am glad that you understand that it does not work.
No fucking way I'm reposting libertarian propaganda posters! Libertarian intellectuals usually apply their razzle dazzle by starting with elevating property rights right up to the top of the list in importance..with basic human rights and freedoms. And then there's deliberately interchanging investment or unearned income with "earned" income..the one that the vast majority of working people have to depend on!

Wrap it all up in a package called FREEDOM and you got the whole libertarian movement that's been funded and disseminated over the past 40 years.
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Old January 16th, 2017, 11:08 AM   #55
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We enjoyed a lot of prosperity under Reagan, across the board. Reagan taxed workers and uber rich investors are the same rate. First thing Bill Clinton did was to increase tax rates on workers. Then he cut tax rates on wealthy investors. When Clinton left office the max rate on workers was over twice the rate that rich investors did.

People want the opportunity to work and get ahead and be independent. They don't want Obamacare which takes away their Medicaid if they get a job or pushes them by removing subsidies if they get a better job.

The middle class is tired of paying out 50% of their income in cumulative taxes and seeing the Dem leadership focused on issues like which bathroom Catilyn Jenner is using or the effects of cow farts on global warming.
Reagan's "prosperity" was immensely popular with the already rich and privileged, and supposedly the benefits were supposed to "trickle down" according to the divine laws of supply side economic theory, but those promises first layed out by high priest- Milton Friedman and his #1 disciples: Margaret Thatcher and Ronnie Reagan never came to pass! Kind of the economic version of the Millerites climbing up on their roofs one night back in the summer of 1844 to await the 2nd Coming and being raptured off to heaven!

So, the great unwashed masses in America are acting similar to those in Europe...getting restless and disillusioned with the orthodox religion and the reform movements that have emerged out of it and have been claiming to fix the problems.

Large numbers of people didn't buy the rosy economic numbers pumped out during the Obama years, because the rising stock values and incomes didn't benefit them + the celebrated drop in unemployment was a fraud! And everyday people didn't even have to know the details that have come out later..showing 90% of new jobs "created" are temp, contract and part time work..the kinds of jobs that add nothing to people's anxieties about debt and the immediate future, not to mention drive wages down even further!

And even a lot of those people who voted for Trump this time are not going to wait very long to see results, before they're angry and looking for other options.
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Old January 16th, 2017, 12:13 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
We enjoyed a lot of prosperity under Reagan, across the board. Reagan taxed workers and uber rich investors are the same rate. First thing Bill Clinton did was to increase tax rates on workers. Then he cut tax rates on wealthy investors. When Clinton left office the max rate on workers was over twice the rate that rich investors did.

People want the opportunity to work and get ahead and be independent. They don't want Obamacare which takes away their Medicaid if they get a job or pushes them by removing subsidies if they get a better job.

The middle class is tired of paying out 50% of their income in cumulative taxes and seeing the Dem leadership focused on issues like which bathroom Catilyn Jenner is using or the effects of cow farts on global warming.
My taxes went up under Reagan, not much, but the increase in Social Security was a little more than the cut in income taxes, so my paycheck dropped a couple of bucks, which I remember because I was checking to see how much my taxes would drop.
Things got better under Reagan because we were recovering from an Oil Shock recession. But what he put in place is why we have such a large National Debt, it's why workers have lost ground, it's why the wealthy have increased their share of the pie so much.
It was Reagan that inspired Osama Bin Laden to believe he could attack America, and get away with it.
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Last edited by goober; January 16th, 2017 at 12:17 PM.
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Old January 16th, 2017, 12:16 PM   #57
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Reagan raised taxes a bunch of times on the working class people to try to make up for the revenue short fall.

So vote republican. Because who doesn't want to pick up the slack for the already super wealthy?

idiots
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Old January 16th, 2017, 12:20 PM   #58
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My taxes went up under Reagan, not much, but the increase in Social Security was a little more than the cut in income taxes, so my paycheck dropped a couple of bucks, which I remember because I was checking to see how much my taxes would drop.
Things got better under Reagan because we were recovering from an Oil Shock recession. But what he put in place is why we have such a large National Debt, it's why workers have lost ground, it's why the wealthy have increased their share of the pie so much.
It was Reagan that inspired Osama Bin Laden to believe he could attack America, and get away with it.
We got a lot of economic growth from Reagan's deficit spending. We saw a healthy increase in Real Household Incomes, everyone prospered.

With Obama, just a fraction of what it cost. Obama's debt increase is nearly double what it cost the US to fight WWII, with very little in return.
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Old January 16th, 2017, 12:25 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Fayt View Post
You said quote:

"Remove all of the income tax and all working people will receive a 30% raise."

So where's your evidence that this will work?
if you don't take something from someone they will still have it.

Do you need evidence of that? It is elementary.
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Old January 16th, 2017, 12:44 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Sabcat View Post
if you don't take something from someone they will still have it.

Do you need evidence of that? It is elementary.
I'm taking the ideology further. What society on planet Earth that's doing this where you love take you and your family to live?
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