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Old June 10th, 2018, 06:57 AM   #31
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To Supposin: Throughout my long life I heard all of the talk about a national sales tax, a flat tax, a valued added tax, and every variation of taxation. Every proposal pundits suggested amounted to tinkering with the existing system. Abolishing the IRS was one of best:

'Gang of 3': Time to dump the IRS
America's most hated agency 'weaponized by administration'
Published: 07/21/2013 at 6:44 PM
GARTH KANT

?Gang of 3?: Time to dump the IRS
Although the IRS should be abolished by Congress, I do not see how it can be accomplished without repealing the XVI Amendment. So long as the Income Tax Amendment remains in place every federal court will rule that a tax on income is constitutional irrespective of anything Congress passes. Since it is constitutional the government requires a bureaucracy to collect the money.

Take this one to the bank. The Constitution means squat to the SCOTUS as John Roberts demonstrated with the Affordable Care Act. Abolish the IRS without repealing the XVI Amendment and the High Court will uphold the income tax on constitutional grounds because government revenues are at stake. Every case that is even remotely connected to government revenues is decided in favor of the government. When it comes to dumping the IRS, I can safely predict that the verdict will be 9 to 0 reaffirming state and federal government’s Right to tax income.

So long as individuals are forced to file a tax return there will be a tax on income. Lets put repealing the income tax aside for a moment and look at the most popular proposal offered to replace the IRS.

A flat tax

A flat tax is still a tax on income. Working Americans will still be required to file a tax return with a federal bureaucracy of one kind or another if Congress abolishes the IRS. Worse still, a flat tax does nothing to wipe out the malevolent tyranny built into a tax on income.

Here is the reality. If a flat tax begins at one percent it will quickly rise to fifty percent or higher. The only way to prevent a flat tax on income from going right back to where it stands today is to place a ceiling on the percentage. No Congress will ever place limits on itself. Bottom line: Congress votes for floors not ceilings.

Interestingly, a flat tax ceiling brings the issue right back to the Constitution. It would take an amendment to the Constitution to keep the ceiling from being raised. Even there the High Court can, and will, cite the XVI Amendment in order to nullify a fixed flat tax ceiling.

Tax preparers

Then-Speaker of the House Denny Hastert once said that doing away with the IRS would save working Americans 2 billion dollars a year in fees. I’m sure that number is much higher today. Hastert did not once hint at abolishing the INCOME TAX RETURN. Nothing ever came of it nor ever will because accountants, tax preparers, and tax attorneys write the tax laws. Does anybody believe they will write themselves out of business? any more than the insurance industry wrote themselves out of business when they wrote Hillarycare, the ACA or the AHCA.

Every presidential candidate after the welfare state took off promised to reform the tax code. The rhetoric goes something like this:

‘I can make the government run more efficiently by eliminating waste and fraud.’
NOTE: Failed presidential candidate, John Kasich, was big on making the federal government run efficiently which is the last thing anybody with a lick of sense wants. If you doubt me take a look at what inefficiency does to you, then look at what efficiency will do.

The fact is this:


REFORM IS ONE Of THE UGLIEST WORDS IN POLITICS ON PAR WITH BIPARTISAN.

Reform is impossible without bipartisan support begs these questions:

1. What does bipartisanship give to Democrats who are committed to a totalitarian “democracy”? (Upchuck Schumer refers to “our constitutional democracy.)

2. What does bipartisanship give to Education industry parasites who thrive on the income tax?

3. When did conservative Americans ever get anything from bipartisan legislation in the past 60 years?

Hark back to the time reforming healthcare filled the airwaves for months on end. Instead of reform the Democrats finally gave the country socialized medicine and called it reform. No surprise there. Whenever Democrats talk about reform they always mean making it worse. Obama and Pelosi must have gotten their definition of reform from a Klingon dictionary. As usual, they played fast and loose with the truth so it fit into their reform socialized medicine sales pitch.

Bottom line: Talking about taxes of any kind must begin and end with repealing the XVI Amendment. Please let me know if you ever hear an elected official in either party mention repeal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
Sales taxes are not particularly regressive; they're not progressive.

Opponent of general sales taxes correctly point out that lesser income earners must spend a greater proportion, and higher income earners need not, and generally do not spend their entire incomes for products that would be subject to a general sales tax. Lesser income earners generally do spend a greater proportion of their incomes for such items.
Truly, the poor have little or no discretionary income and the wealthy have more such discretionary income. The poor must spend greater proportions of their incomes for necessities.

The expenditures of the wealthy that would not be subject to a general sales tax, are currently items that generally now reduce their taxable incomes. Proportional to their individual revenues, their expenditures that would be subject to a general sales tax are no less, and I suspect exceed the proportions of their revenues subject to our current federal individuals' income taxes.

But for those that do not pay income taxes, a general sales tax would be a regressive tax.

I'm a proponent for replacing a significant proportion of taxes levied only upon wages and payrolls, and replacing those revenues with a general sales tax. FICA is the most regressive of federal taxes.

Refer to:
FICA and SECA are our most regressive taxes.

Respectfully, Supposn
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Old June 10th, 2018, 09:01 AM   #32
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By regressive, does that mean who is most hurt by sales tax and can least afford it? If so, then the poor certainly see sales tax as regressive.
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Old June 10th, 2018, 09:56 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
Sales taxes are not particularly regressive; they're not progressive.
After such a bold statement to title your thread, your OP is already backtracking, qualifying and obfuscating the obvious truth that sales taxes ARE regressive by their very nature....since they extract the same pound of flesh from all regardless of income!
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Old June 10th, 2018, 09:59 AM   #34
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The nation was funded with a sales tax until the income tax scheme came about. They were called tariffs
There is a reason why historian- Gerald Horne titled his study of the American Revolution: "The Counter-Revolution of 1776!" And this is it! Your glorious founding fathers that you worship right up there with your bible set up a system that was undemocratic and controlled by wealthy, property(including human property)holding white men, so should it have come as no surprise that they love sales taxes and would have been horrified at the thought taxes on earned and investment income as well as estates?
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Old June 11th, 2018, 05:54 PM   #35
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I honestly don't understand what you are saying in regards to the old lady. Are you.saying that you want to create a property tax loophole for the elderly?
I could see a tax deferment for the elderly, that gets settled by the estate.

The tax will be collected, it's just deferred.
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Old June 12th, 2018, 06:08 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by right to left View Post
After such a bold statement to title your thread, your OP is already backtracking, qualifying and obfuscating the obvious truth that sales taxes ARE regressive by their very nature....since they extract the same pound of flesh from all regardless of income!
Right to Left, no, a general sales tax extracts the same proportion of flesh from ALMOST the entire population regardless of incomes!

The proportion of income that the spend upon items that would be subject to a general federal sales tax is as great or greater than current income taxable proportions of the wealthiest incomes.

Sales taxes are problematic in regard to those not fully subject to income taxes. But many of those people are indirectly income taxed to a great extent. Certainly, a very substantial portion of enterprise's income taxes and employers' other taxes are passed on to their customers.

FICA is our most regressive of all federal taxes. Replacing any portion of FICA payroll taxes with a general sales tax of lesser rate would increase tax revenues for Social Security and Medicare at no additional cost to USA employees, (which includes the working poor who in proportional to their incomes, benefit more from those programs).
Refer to the thread:
FICA and SECA are our most regressive taxes.

Respectfully, Supposn

Last edited by Supposn; June 12th, 2018 at 06:11 AM.
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Old June 12th, 2018, 07:16 AM   #37
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Simply put: a sales tax is a regressive tax. To claim it's not is to loudly trumpet one's lack of knowledge on taxation.
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Old June 12th, 2018, 07:18 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
Right to Left, no, a general sales tax extracts the same proportion of flesh from ALMOST the entire population regardless of incomes!

So you are saying a millionaire paying a sales tax of 8% on his purchase is paying just as much proportionally as a guy who makes $10k a year paying 8% on a purchase? Obviously that tax hits the low income guy much harder than the rich guy and to assert it's equal to both is really, really stupid.
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Old June 12th, 2018, 07:21 AM   #39
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The only people supporting Trump are 1) Russia 2) the low IQ crowd in America and 3) the Russian owned GOP reps in Congress/Senate trying to protect Trump. Everybody else sees he's stupid, lazy, entitled, and infantile. Not to mention wildly incompetent and incoherent.
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Old June 12th, 2018, 09:05 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by GluteusMaximus View Post
So you are saying a millionaire paying a sales tax of 8% on his purchase is paying just as much proportionally as a guy who makes $10k a year paying 8% on a purchase? Obviously that tax hits the low income guy much harder than the rich guy and to assert it's equal to both is really, really stupid.
GluteusMaximus, I wrote, a general sales tax extracts the same proportion of flesh from ALMOST the entire population regardless of incomes! That's ALMOST the entire population!
The WORKING-POOR currently pay as great or GREATER than all other income earners' proportions of their incomes currently paid for federal taxes. A $10K/per year employee is certainly among the working poor.

To the extent that that FICA and SECA in particular, would be shifted from a tax based upon payrolls, to a general sales tax of lesser tax rate, both corporate and other enterprises taxes would be reduced, employees' taxes would be slightly net reduced, federal tax revenues for funding Social Security and Medicare would be increased, and wealthier USA residents would pay a greater portion of their incomes for federal taxes.

Certainly, the working poor would net benefit and employees net taxes in aggregate wouldn't be increased to any extent of significance.

Refer to the thread:
FICA and SECA are our most regressive taxes.
Respectfully, Supposn
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