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Old December 2nd, 2017, 09:00 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Neil View Post
There are some who speak of eliminating income inequality as though it's a problem that needs to be done away with, but it actually isn't.

The only kind of "problem" that can be drawn from the notion of income inequality is envy by those who have less of those who have more.

One way to eliminate the "problem" of income inequality is to force everyone to have an income of 0. As long as we live under capitalism - meaning at some point someone somewhere has to exert force (mentally, physically, or both ways) in order to be able to produce goods and services we need and trade with each other - we're going to have to have some sort of income in some form, and with an income of 0 that means no one can exchange goods & services. We would all have to be 100% self sufficient, which is at best the most inefficient way to live, and at worst not feasible for everyone. This means that's not going to happen.

The only other option is to make it so everyone is getting the same income. This means just about everyone is going to go after the easiest & most comfortable jobs to do, and almost no one is going to go after the difficult or undesirable jobs. Rather than doing the most difficult jobs, such as being scientists, engineers, computer programmers, physicians, dentists, nurses, teachers, professors, airline pilots, etc., the smartest people will be going after the easy jobs just like everyone else (except they'll probably get them first since they're smarter). That leaves people who aren't as smart as them having to do those difficult jobs.

It also means the people who start and run businesses that employ people are not going to have the incentive to start or continue to run businesses, because that's much harder work than being an employee.

There's a reason people get paid more as they climb the ladder, someone's boss gets paid more than them, and not the other way around.

Income inequality is just a natural part of a healthy economy.

I'd rather work for someone getting paid 100 times more than I get paid, be able to make ends meet, have a nice home, a nice car for getting around and back & forth to work, a good computer, nice TV, good food, etc., if all it means is that I might be envious. I'd rather not want my boss to be forced to make the same income I do - not have a job at all & struggle to make ends meet, have a shack for a home, have to walk to work, crap for food, etc.
Japanese managers do not have excessive incomes. Following WWII the Japanese adopted the Deming model for democratic industry, and I strongly believe we should replace our autocratic industry with the democratic model for industry.

A problem with extremes of low and high incomes is creating separate realities and pitting people against each other, neither side understanding the other sides experience of reality. Ancient Rome was warned about the danger of this separation of classes that was occurring in Rome. Our last election demonstrates the danger we are in, as many people voted for the destruction of the establishment.

The best way to learn history is to relive it. The US has been on the same path Germany followed to the election of Hitler, and it has pretty much paralleled Athens 200 years of democracy, and the US can also be compared to the fall of Rome.
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 09:17 AM   #22
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Several studies by knowledgeable economists and experts in the field disagree. I have these links to back up my claim that wealth inequality hurts the economic health of countries and in fact the world. Do you have a link for your treatise?

https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft...15/sdn1513.pdf

Higher taxes for rich will not harm economic growth, says IMF | The Independent
Like that inequality is not about the pay for the jobs we do, but ownership versus non-ownership. There are not enough hours in the day for a human being to earn great wealth. Great wealth comes from owning the source of income. Once one has enough discretionary income to invest it, one is on a spiral up, where more income means a need to invest more money so it isn't lost in taxes. In time a person isn't working for a living but simply managing investments.

It is also easy to get on the spiral down, where life is living from one crisis to the next because there is never the money to avoid the crisis. At this level everyone is the enemy. Those who make laws to protect middle-class standards and who are the police who enforce the laws, become the enemy. When it is believed racism is the cause of the problem, racism most certianly becomes part of the problem and this is great because as long as the races are fighting against each other, they will do nothing about the establishment that is exploiting everyone.

Try getting to work if no one opens the gas station. Enjoy doing your job if no one cleans your building. In the past, we valued people, not just money. Income inequality is a huge problem!
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 09:34 AM   #23
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First, you have to come to realization that WE no longer have the control the Constitution gave us. What we are experiencing is a National government and not a Federal government.
I do not HAVE to "realize" jack shit.
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 10:17 AM   #24
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Here is some light reading.





https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...BqX_vjpx781XNS





https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...Usd_fwR90RKbYL


These two books and the theories that developed from them completely changed the way i looked at the world. Before i thought very similar to you guys about income and money. None of it made sense and all seemed unfair and rigged. There was always something wrong but i just couldn't put my finger on it.

They are probably available in audio if you prefer


Light reading, eh?? I think I'd be much happier reading Dr. Suess or some facsimile of. For example, I recently ran across "The Cat that Shat in the Hat" and "Horton Hires a Ho" and "Yertle the Turtle's Habitat Destroyed by Global Warming".
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 03:51 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Hollywood View Post
I do not HAVE to "realize" jack shit.


Quote:


I do not understand jack shit.

Fixed it for ya.


Welcome
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 05:41 PM   #26
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Has there been, at any time in human history, that there has been income equality?
Look I don't have a problem with someone making twice as much as someone else or ten times as much as someone else.
When 1% of the people control 40% of the wealth, it's a warning that the system is failing.
When the average wealth of the top 5% of a country is 90 times the median wealth, that's a warning.
It makes the economy inefficient, it slows down growth.

Here we are, 35 years after the Reagan tax cuts and growth has averaged 1.8% for the last 16 years, and those were huge tax cuts.
How is adding little tax cuts going to do anything other than blow up the deficit?

Why do you think that 5 of the last six Republican Presidents left office with higher unemployment than the day they took office? Do you think it's because they know how to create jobs? They just keep it a secret....
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 07:20 PM   #27
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Look I don't have a problem with someone making twice as much as someone else or ten times as much as someone else.
When 1% of the people control 40% of the wealth, it's a warning that the system is failing.
When the average wealth of the top 5% of a country is 90 times the median wealth, that's a warning.
It makes the economy inefficient, it slows down growth.

Here we are, 35 years after the Reagan tax cuts and growth has averaged 1.8% for the last 16 years, and those were huge tax cuts.
How is adding little tax cuts going to do anything other than blow up the deficit?

Why do you think that 5 of the last six Republican Presidents left office with higher unemployment than the day they took office? Do you think it's because they know how to create jobs? They just keep it a secret....
Quote:


So, since 1960, federal spending, adjusted for inflation, has quintupled and federal undertakings have multiplied like dandelions, but the federal civilian workforce has expanded only negligibly, to approximately what it was when Dwight Eisenhower was elected in 1952. Does this mean that “big government” is not really big? And that by doing much more with not many more employees it has accomplished prodigies of per-worker productivity? John J. DiIulio Jr., of the University of Pennsylvania and the Brookings Institution, says: Hardly.

Since 1960, the number of state- and local-government employees has tripled to more than 18 million, a growth driven by federal money: Between the early 1960s and early 2010s, the inflation-adjusted value of federal grants for the states increased more than tenfold. For example, the EPA has fewer than 20,000 employees, but 90 percent of EPA programs are completely administered by thousands of state-government employees, largely funded by Washington.

*A quarter of the federal budget is administered by the fewer than 5,000 employees of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) — and by the states, at least half of whose administrative costs are paid by CMS. Various federal crime and homeland security bills help fund local police departments. “By conservative estimates,” Dilulio writes, “there are about 3 million state- and local-government workers” — about 50 percent more than the number of federal workers — “funded via federal grants and contracts.”

*
Then there are for-profit contractors, used, Dilulio says, “by every federal department, bureau and agency.” For almost a decade, the Defense Department’s full-time equivalent of 700,000 to 800,000 civilian workers were supplemented by the full-time equivalent of 620,000 to 770,000 for-profit contract employees. “During the first Gulf War in 1991,” Dilulio says, “American soldiers outnumbered private contractors in the region by about 60-to-1; but, by 2006, there were nearly as many private contractors as soldiers in Iraq — about 100,000 contract employees, not counting subcontractor employees, versus 140,000 troops.” Today, the government spends more (about $350 billion) on defense contractors than on all official federal bureaucrats ($250 billion).






Federal Government Growth Continues While Federal-Employee Numbers Hold | National Review
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 11:45 PM   #28
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The "income inequality" that you are so jealous of exists currently because it is created by the state
Well that's a relief! Here I was worried that inequality is created by business interests who've bought most politicians and government officials necessary to write the kinds of tax law and regulations that suit their interests!
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Want to fix it stop giving the majority of the wealth to the state.
Which 'state' has this majority of the wealth? Recent numbers inform us that six men own equal wealth and assets as the 3.5 billion poorest half of the global population
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Stop the federal reserve. Remove licensing fees and regulations on businesses. Remove the income and all other payroll taxes.

In.short. give the control back to the people.
The Federal Reserve is actually a banking cabal with the largest banks having controlling interest. As if Janet Yellen has been telling them what to do! More like "keep giving me that zero interest QE money Janet and we'll loan the money back to you at interest to finance the federal debt!" It's a better racket than anything the Mafia ever came up with!
As for licensing and regulations on business: take it away and they'll go back to poisoning our food and the environment to increase profitability.
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I do not care about this "income inequality" what i do care about is the parasitic state gobbling up more and more wealth.
A parasitic state that provides your roads and basic services, schools, libraries, parks, rec facilities and the 800 pound gorialla - the military, security and surveillance state operations that gobble up more than a trillion dollars per year..when all the blackbook costs are added together. Costs a lot of money to run an empire, and somebody has to pay for it!
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Old December 3rd, 2017, 12:06 AM   #29
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Like that inequality is not about the pay for the jobs we do, but ownership versus non-ownership. There are not enough hours in the day for a human being to earn great wealth. Great wealth comes from owning the source of income.
Which is a great argument for cooperative ownership - where the workers own a share of the profits their business generates...instead of giving away all of the surplus value of their work to an employer who reaps the benefits and uses his money to make more money.
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Once one has enough discretionary income to invest it, one is on a spiral up, where more income means a need to invest more money so it isn't lost in taxes. In time a person isn't working for a living but simply managing investments.
This is the basic rule of Thomas Picketty's book: earned income cannot keep pace with investment income.

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It is also easy to get on the spiral down, where life is living from one crisis to the next because there is never the money to avoid the crisis. At this level everyone is the enemy. Those who make laws to protect middle-class standards and who are the police who enforce the laws, become the enemy. When it is believed racism is the cause of the problem, racism most certianly becomes part of the problem and this is great because as long as the races are fighting against each other, they will do nothing about the establishment that is exploiting everyone.
Race is significant in America because wealth is white while poverty gets darker and darker as you move down the income scale. The problems with policing come about because the job of law enforcement has become more about protecting property than protecting people! And wealthier people who tend to be white, will have a positive view of police, while blacks..who are suspected of being a threat to wealthy suburbanites moving into gentrified neighborhoods and will have to deal with harassment, punitive fines and worse, just for being in close proximity to the protected class of people etc. will not.

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Try getting to work if no one opens the gas station. Enjoy doing your job if no one cleans your building. In the past, we valued people, not just money. Income inequality is a huge problem!
In their exhaustive analysis of income and wealth levels of inequality around the world - "The Spirit Level," Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett concluded that high income stratification ruins social cohesion and that sense of solidarity and cooperation that might be had if income levels were relatively equal. Doing a good job would have greater status than how much money you make.
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Old December 3rd, 2017, 04:40 AM   #30
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Here's where so many pundits get it wrong. Wealth is NOT just about money. Wealth is about power, control, education, rules, politics, employment. The question is whether the playing field is level. Equality of opportunity isn’t just a matter of fairness. No society can expect to thrive if it doesn’t fully tap the talent and ability of its entire workforce — including those who happen to be born poor.
There's something called "human capital" and another thing called "balance" within our society. When 1% of the people control "human capital" and all the aspects of wealth, including our lawmakers, court systems and White House, we have absolutely no balance and certainly NO level playing field.

Forbes says this: Financial inequality is rising in the United States, but most of the rise is at the top of the distribution. It is not a ‘rich-poor’ gap opening up, but a ‘rich-everyone else’ gap. The top are pulling away from the rest, and the very top are pulling away even faster.

AND let's face it. If we had a magnanimous group of super wealthy folks (and we do have some) the world/nation would be a better place, but we DON'T. That's why the new GOP tax plan is a joke. The CEOs are NOT (and they admit it) going to share the wealth--at least most of them won't. They aren't going to hire more staff. They aren't going to give more to churches/charities. They aren't going to build more business. They aren't going to give their employees a raise.
What they are going to do is buy up more shares of their stock so they can control MORE wealth. In fact, with their mergers and acquisitions, our CEOs MAY decide to reduce jobs because their companies may consolidate duplicative departments.
AND what about the elimination of the estate tax? Who does that benefit? Anyone here on DTT? Doubtful....unless your family left you a whopping $5-10 million.

Here's how desperate this situation is and this info is dated 2016: The richest 1% now has as much wealth as the rest of the world combined. Let that sink in.
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