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Old January 21st, 2018, 03:02 PM   #31
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Exactly what jobs are returning to the US? Lately the unreported news is informing us that the Carrier plant in Indiana....yes, the one Trump gave stacks of money to keep jobs in America...is outsourcing all of their production to Mexico: https://www.yahoo.com/news/factory-t...014002348.html
A couple of years back, we learned that Obama's much bragged about increase in employment was low wage-no benefits-part time and casual or contract work: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/28/b...paid-ones.html

So, once the capitalist bubble has inflated to maximum proportions and is only running on hot air and increased debtload, what happens next?
The problem is that TDS news media keep making up fake news and Trump-haters keep on swallowing it and parroting it forward. This Carrier situation has been debunked over and over again, and yet the false narrative is that the jobs were lost anyway, even though early in the deal, it was made clear that Carrier had already to far committed in Mexico for all the jobs to be saved. The 800 jobs that Trump saved is STILL SAVED, the workers that were laid off were ALWAYS going to be laid off. And another thing, Trump didn't give away stacks of money, the GOVERNOR OF INDIANA did - Trump just helped to negotiate the deal between the State of Indiana and Carrier. On top of that, the $7million were tax breaks and incentives, money which Carrier wouldn't be paying anyway if they had shut down the entire plant, AND was more than cancelled out by Carrier's $16million reinvestment back into the factory.

Even Politifacts' Trump-O-Meter could not spin it, even though they sure as hell did try. Here are the relevant parts, without the rest of the TDS spin:

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President Donald Trump often points to a deal he helped negotiate with a Carrier manufacturing plant in Indiana as proof that he's stopping companies from moving American jobs to Mexico.

However, starting this July, Carrier, which produces cooling and heating equipment, will lay off 632 Indiana employees as it moves its fan coil operations to Mexico.

Some of Trump's critics say this cuts against his promise to save the Carrier plant.

"Turns out those Carrier jobs are moving to Mexico anyway," tweeted Vox writer Matthew Yglesias June 22.

"The vaunted 'Carrier deal' didn't last a year," tweeted Noah Rothman, associate editor at Commentary magazine, also on June 22.

But these particular job losses were always going to happen, and Carrier made that fact known at the same time it announced the deal.

Trump and Vice President Mike Pence, the former Indiana governor, announced the agreement with Carrier Nov. 29, keeping Carrier's gas furnace plant in Indiana and saving about 800 jobs that the company says otherwise would have been relocated to Mexico. The state of Indiana vowed to give the company $7 million in tax incentives over a decade, and the company agreed to invest $16 million in keeping the company in the state.

However, Carrier said at the time that it would still move its fan coil operation to Mexico.

"While this announcement is good news for many, we recognize it's not good news for everyone," said a Dec. 1 company memo. "We are moving forward with previously announced plans to relocate the fan coil manufacturing lines, with expected completion by the end of 2017."

In May 2017, Carrier specified that relocating the fan coil operations to Mexico would result in 632 job losses in Indiana. That doesn't affect the approximately 800 jobs Trump's deal preserved.

"There has been no change in our previously announced plans," said Seth Martin, a Carrier representative.
Trump-O-Meter: Save the Carrier plant in Indiana | PolitiFact
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Last edited by Marcus Livius; January 21st, 2018 at 03:14 PM.
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Old January 22nd, 2018, 03:46 AM   #32
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I could have presented this information in a couple of threads, but I want to focus the discussion on the world economy. Major industries are returning to the US and this has to be good for the US people wanting jobs, at least in the short term, but is it good for the world economy and will the change be good for the US in the long run? I really don't know. I am very worried that it well be bad for the countries loosing the jobs and that in the long run, this will be bad for everyone?

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Old January 22nd, 2018, 05:08 AM   #33
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Well, that might depend on how much you think you need before you can help someone else. Jesus spoke well of the woman who gave her last coins and Pat Robinson promises we get back much more than we give.
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Old January 22nd, 2018, 05:34 AM   #34
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It is unfortunate the economy was so bad when Obama was geared up to run for office, however, that might have been a golden opportunity for a man of color to run, because the popularity of the Republican party crashed with the economy. However, that bad economy made it next to impossible for anyone to look good.

There are at least 4 reasons for industry to return to the US and that makes this a good time to be President and look good.

https://www.designnews.com/automatio...-returning-usa

Hell, we knew we were competing with third world countries for our jobs for a long time. That held our wages down, but the cost of living did not stay down. I think we need to do something about the banking system and population growth if our wages are going to keep pace with the cost of living. Like what do you think keeps driving up the cost of living so that our labor cannot possibly be competitive with the socialized countries or third world countries and maintain a high standard of living?
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Old January 25th, 2018, 08:20 AM   #35
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It is unfortunate the economy was so bad when Obama was geared up to run for office, however, that might have been a golden opportunity for a man of color to run, because the popularity of the Republican party crashed with the economy. However, that bad economy made it next to impossible for anyone to look good.
A bad economy did not prevent FDR from becoming FDR! The truth is Obama had a golden opportunity to do what Sweden and real 'progressive' nations did: nationalize the major banks and reorganize them under new leadership. After all, if it was okay in the GM bailout, why not Goldman-Sachs and Wells Fargo? And even the largest banks could have remained public institutions similar to America's one and only public bank- the Bank of North Dakota, which fwiw was not affected by the 2008 banking and financing meltdown, because they were investing in real mortgages and such/not betting on the derivative casino markets for maximum profits!

Well, we all know the real answer why Obama took orders from Wall Street: he came in with an administration chock full of Goldman and related Wall Street alum, and even more important, he came in with little of his own money, but with big financial backers who the circumstantial evidence would indicate was looking to greatly increase his own net worth by a run for the White House.

This of course was not FDR's track record, who thought nothing of disparaging the same Wall Street investors he crossed swords with in business prior to becoming a politician. FDR wanted prestige/not more money, so he hammered the discredited banks rhetorically and literally with new antitrust rules and separating investment and commercial banking. None of these things were anything a managed rising political star..whether an Obama or a Clinton are ready to do when they assume office. The best they will ever accomplish is just to make middling changes approved by their paymasters.

And, as an afterthought, the disappointment with Obama was a key reason why a no-nothing idiot like billionaire Trump could make an argument that he would be a president who could not be bought and therefore make the right choices.
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Old January 26th, 2018, 10:45 AM   #36
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A bad economy did not prevent FDR from becoming FDR! The truth is Obama had a golden opportunity to do what Sweden and real 'progressive' nations did: nationalize the major banks and reorganize them under new leadership. After all, if it was okay in the GM bailout, why not Goldman-Sachs and Wells Fargo? And even the largest banks could have remained public institutions similar to America's one and only public bank- the Bank of North Dakota, which fwiw was not affected by the 2008 banking and financing meltdown, because they were investing in real mortgages and such/not betting on the derivative casino markets for maximum profits!

Well, we all know the real answer why Obama took orders from Wall Street: he came in with an administration chock full of Goldman and related Wall Street alum, and even more important, he came in with little of his own money, but with big financial backers who the circumstantial evidence would indicate was looking to greatly increase his own net worth by a run for the White House.

This of course was not FDR's track record, who thought nothing of disparaging the same Wall Street investors he crossed swords with in business prior to becoming a politician. FDR wanted prestige/not more money, so he hammered the discredited banks rhetorically and literally with new antitrust rules and separating investment and commercial banking. None of these things were anything a managed rising political star..whether an Obama or a Clinton are ready to do when they assume office. The best they will ever accomplish is just to make middling changes approved by their paymasters.

And, as an afterthought, the disappointment with Obama was a key reason why a no-nothing idiot like billionaire Trump could make an argument that he would be a president who could not be bought and therefore make the right choices.
I am curious about your background that makes you aware of such things. For sure Obama was not a financial expert and this is where so many do-gooders fall down. I was disappointed when Obama relied on the same people who got into us into trouble, to get us out of trouble. I think he could have made better choices, and we could have gotten better results.

That Roosevelt did understand business and banking and would not be dependent on others was a certainly a benefit. Trump may have that benefit, but he is not a FDR. He does not have the class of FDR and Roosevelt had a different understanding of judging our success. Franklin Roosevelt came from a family with high standards.

“Here is your country. Cherish these natural wonders, cherish the natural resources, cherish the history and romance as a sacred heritage, for your children and your children's children. Do not let selfish men or greedy interests skin your country of its beauty, its riches or its romance.”

― Theodore Roosevelt

“Patriotism means to stand by the country. It Does not mean to stand by the President.” Franklin Roosevelt

"The most important single ingredient in the formula of success is knowing how to get along with people." -Theodore Roosevelt.
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Old January 27th, 2018, 06:11 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Athena View Post
It is unfortunate the economy was so bad when Obama was geared up to run for office, however, that might have been a golden opportunity for a man of color to run, because the popularity of the Republican party crashed with the economy. However, that bad economy made it next to impossible for anyone to look good.

There are at least 4 reasons for industry to return to the US and that makes this a good time to be President and look good.

https://www.designnews.com/automatio...-returning-usa

Hell, we knew we were competing with third world countries for our jobs for a long time. That held our wages down, but the cost of living did not stay down. I think we need to do something about the banking system and population growth if our wages are going to keep pace with the cost of living. Like what do you think keeps driving up the cost of living so that our labor cannot possibly be competitive with the socialized countries or third world countries and maintain a high standard of living?
• The biggest, most expensive military in human history.

• Our obscenely expensive healthcare system.

The healthcare industry quite literally has us by the neck.

I've given up on changing the banking system using any way other than a slow, "organic" process, self-driven. Even that is a long shot. But the massive amount of power held by the bankstas all but ensures that any vacuum created by their demise would attract the worst sort of people.

And overpopulation, what can be done in time, in time to prevent widespread malnutrition and utter, abject poverty? It's some decades off, but it's out there ... wherever exactly the tipping point is.

Overpopulation is the biggie. I believe the average person everywhere on earth feels more or less certain that somehow technology will pull our collective asses out of the fire.

Right now, a technological rescue offers our best hope, mainly because at this point in time it's our only hope other than contact with benevolent aliens, or the arrival of supernatural beings of light, or something similar along those lines.

Can the earth sustain another three billion humans, while the standard of living for many mildly to moderately improves, further increasing pressure on earth's ecosystems?

Last edited by imaginethat; January 27th, 2018 at 06:15 AM.
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Old January 27th, 2018, 09:15 AM   #38
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• The biggest, most expensive military in human history.

• Our obscenely expensive healthcare system.

The healthcare industry quite literally has us by the neck.

I've given up on changing the banking system using any way other than a slow, "organic" process, self-driven. Even that is a long shot. But the massive amount of power held by the bankstas all but ensures that any vacuum created by their demise would attract the worst sort of people.

And overpopulation, what can be done in time, in time to prevent widespread malnutrition and utter, abject poverty? It's some decades off, but it's out there ... wherever exactly the tipping point is.

Overpopulation is the biggie. I believe the average person everywhere on earth feels more or less certain that somehow technology will pull our collective asses out of the fire.

Right now, a technological rescue offers our best hope, mainly because at this point in time it's our only hope other than contact with benevolent aliens, or the arrival of supernatural beings of light, or something similar along those lines.

Can the earth sustain another three billion humans, while the standard of living for many mildly to moderately improves, further increasing pressure on earth's ecosystems?
There have been a few books written that changed the world. Along with that, democracy is rule by reason, and we have democracy because humans are capable of reason. However, they are not born with knowledge and not all thinking is equal. We make far too many decisions in ignorance and without critical consideration. And know with all your heart and mind that forums like this one can make a difference. The role of the moderator is one of the most important positions in all possible positions a human being can hold, because a moderator has the power to influence what and how people think. A forum is a book that reaches far, far more people than books of old, and by open discussion, it can change minds.

We can not impact the whole world directly and that leaves only nature to manage life as nature has also done. Frankly, mother nature doesn't care if you live or die. Bringing her gifts or making sacrifices will not change a thing. Nor will our stupidity and technology resolve our problems any better. Living as though the planet is not finite is plain stupidity! Living as though everyone can have a good paying job and put money aside money for retirement when in truth they don't earn enough to buy a home, is really stupid. We seriously have to do something about this stupidity!

Let us begin by naming all the jobs in our community. What are we willing to pay people to do? Then how much are we willing to pay? Then what is the budget for the person living with this monthly income? What resources are needed for the person to have this job? trees, mining, farm products, industrial demands for minerals? What resources are needed to provide adequately for this person? I mean, let us really know what we are talking. We are doing a lot of talking, without knowing what the heck we are talking about.
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Last edited by Athena; January 27th, 2018 at 09:19 AM.
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Old January 27th, 2018, 10:05 AM   #39
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I am curious about your background that makes you aware of such things.
Thank you, but as I've mentioned before, I have no special, formal education other than high school and the necessary course work needed for apprenticeships in machining and tool&diemaking. Although the introduction of CNC(computerized) machines starting in the 80's requires regular upgrading and has changed a lot of the work from manual to programming/though this is all dumb technology, and manual adjustments still have to be made.

But, I work to live/not live to work! So, on my own time...even back when I was in high school, I was always interested in exploring deeper into history and social and physical sciences than any course work offered. I just wanted to know stuff and have questions answered...the part about making any of this a career choice wasn't really on my radar cause I couldn't envision sitting in a classroom after grade 12 or pursuing an academic career...which was a lot easier back then than it is today, where even major scientists and researchers have turned into prostitutes to try to scare up the funding necessary to pursue any work they consider important. Instead of working for institutions, they're really working for corporate sponsors today!

What's sad is that if I go back a previous generation or two, my father...who came of age just as the Great Depression was starting, only had a grade 5 education...like most farm kids on the east coast; yet he had no trouble reading newspapers(that have actually been dumbed down in recent decades) or important papers, do his own income tax, and when WWII broke out, nearly all the men of conscription age who had that similar grade school education were deemed literate enough and sufficient in basic math to pass the induction tests as enlisted men for the Army or Navy. But, most important, people of my father and mother's generation(who was a little younger) seemed to have a greater desire to learn new things than any generation after the TV age that us boomers grew up in. Educators worried that TV was making us less literate and turning children into passive consumers. All this "smart" technology we have today is even worse! The 'smarter' the technology gets/ the dumber the people become!

Quote:
For sure Obama was not a financial expert and this is where so many do-gooders fall down. I was disappointed when Obama relied on the same people who got into us into trouble, to get us out of trouble. I think he could have made better choices, and we could have gotten better results.
Most of us...especially outside the Chicago area didn't know about a certain billionheiress named Penny Pritzker, who has been the power behind the scene of Chicago Democratic Party politics. For reasons that nobody really understood when the 08 campaign got going, she got behind an essentially green candidate, who was brand new on the national scene..just arriving at the right time and providing the fresh face the Party wanted for a Senate candidate. And within a year, he's running for president. And it's not a throwaway campaign to build his name nationally, it's a really serious campaign that gathers big donors on Wall Street in a year when it was assumed to be "Her Turn!" That, and all the big money...so big that Obama opted out of the old, inadequate campaign finance reform for matching funds, and just pocketed twice the money the McCain Campaign could take in in the General Election.

With all that, it was pretty damn obvious that Obama would never prosecute fraud on Wall Street, nor bailout mortgageholders with 'liar loans.' And a Democratic Party that failed to take on Wall Street or help mortgageholders had nothing to offer when the fake "Tea Party" got kicked off by CNBC with attacks on those who were bankrupted by this fraud...not to mention their neighbors likewise ruined as foreclosed houses were abandoned and left for arsonists...destroying property values in neighborhoods consigned for gentrification. America discovered it had a rightwing pro-business party and a do-nothing pro-business party!
Quote:
That Roosevelt did understand business and banking and would not be dependent on others was a certainly a benefit. Trump may have that benefit, but he is not a FDR. He does not have the class of FDR and Roosevelt had a different understanding of judging our success. Franklin Roosevelt came from a family with high standards.

“Here is your country. Cherish these natural wonders, cherish the natural resources, cherish the history and romance as a sacred heritage, for your children and your children's children. Do not let selfish men or greedy interests skin your country of its beauty, its riches or its romance.”

― Theodore Roosevelt

“Patriotism means to stand by the country. It Does not mean to stand by the President.” Franklin Roosevelt

"The most important single ingredient in the formula of success is knowing how to get along with people." -Theodore Roosevelt.
Yeah, the worst thing about Trump is that he pretended to be something of an FDR or at least a Teddy Roosevelt- who went after the monopolists directly back at the turn of the century. Part of it was Trump has always been faking how much he is actually worth, and he was looking at achieving high political office as a business opportunity above all else! So, he is even more tightly constrained than the usual opportunist seeking high office, since he doesn't seem to care about anything outside of his own personal needs and he is at least as dumb as Reagan if not stupider!
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Old January 27th, 2018, 10:18 AM   #40
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There have been a few books written that changed the world. Along with that, democracy is rule by reason, and we have democracy because humans are capable of reason. However, they are not born with knowledge and not all thinking is equal. We make far too many decisions in ignorance and without critical consideration. And know with all your heart and mind that forums like this one can make a difference. The role of the moderator is one of the most important positions in all possible positions a human being can hold, because a moderator has the power to influence what and how people think. A forum is a book that reaches far, far more people than books of old, and by open discussion, it can change minds.

We can not impact the whole world directly and that leaves only nature to manage life as nature has also done. Frankly, mother nature doesn't care if you live or die. Bringing her gifts or making sacrifices will not change a thing. Nor will our stupidity and technology resolve our problems any better. Living as though the planet is not finite is plain stupidity! Living as though everyone can have a good paying job and put money aside money for retirement when in truth they don't earn enough to buy a home, is really stupid. We seriously have to do something about this stupidity!

Let us begin by naming all the jobs in our community. What are we willing to pay people to do? Then how much are we willing to pay? Then what is the budget for the person living with this monthly income? What resources are needed for the person to have this job? trees, mining, farm products, industrial demands for minerals? What resources are needed to provide adequately for this person? I mean, let us really know what we are talking. We are doing a lot of talking, without knowing what the heck we are talking about.
When there are major design flaws on a construction site, often the entire structure has to be torn down to the foundation and started over again! I see something similar in how everything called "progressive" and "green" today is all about tinkering with the system we have now than informing people that survival of future generations will require a complete cultural overhaul and a complete end to all notions that we are in any way not subject to nature's cycles. The human race has been in overshoot for decades and local ecosystems do not allow any species..including humans to continue drawing down and degrading their environmental niches beyond what can be replenished.

I wish that, when it comes to all non-renewable mined resources, that people understood the obvious: all metals and minerals taken from the earth are finite resources! They should be used sparingly/not sqaundered by capitalist consumer societies! And as resources are drawn down, the environmental damage increases..because more earth has to be extracted, refined, milled and smelted..requiring ever-greater amounts of energy to be expended. People should look up The Red Queen's Race...yeah that Red Queen from Alice In Wonderland! Lewis Caroll was on to something when he put that in the story. And along with our faster and faster running to stay in place, more and more toxic metals and minerals are brought to the surface unwittingly...poisoning habitats because these elements had been buried for millions and even billions of years...so biological organisms have no defenses against them or tolerance for their effects!
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