Political Forums  

Go Back   Defending The Truth Political Forum > Political Issues > Money and Finance > Economics


Thanks Tree17Thanks
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old January 30th, 2018, 08:39 AM   #21
end capitalism now
 
right to left's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
Technology isn't going to pull our asses out of the fire for one simple and unavoidable reason.

The earth's resources are finite, there are too many of us, and we continue adding more people.

Our technological society has arrived at a point similar to one that shocked our ancestors, when they realized forests were a finite resource.
Most of the people in the world use few of the resources. In the Republic of Congo itself, it was mentioned in another article that less than 10% have electricity in their homes! All these resources and rivers that could easily be harnessed for hydro power(though that might carry environmental damage to marine life) and most of the people there are scratching out a living with low carbon and resource impacts/while the West keeps increasing its per capita energy and carbon footprints with each passing year. There's a lesson about consumer demand-driven capitalist production buried there if anyone wants to find it.
right to left is online now  
Old January 30th, 2018, 08:41 AM   #22
Senior Member
 
imaginethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Western Slope, Colorado
Posts: 60,008
Quote:
Originally Posted by right to left View Post
Most of the people in the world use few of the resources. In the Republic of Congo itself, it was mentioned in another article that less than 10% have electricity in their homes! All these resources and rivers that could easily be harnessed for hydro power(though that might carry environmental damage to marine life) and most of the people there are scratching out a living with low carbon and resource impacts/while the West keeps increasing its per capita energy and carbon footprints with each passing year. There's a lesson about consumer demand-driven capitalist production buried there if anyone wants to find it.
You need to include "the East" as it keeps increasing its per capita energy and carbon footprints with each passing year, too.
imaginethat is offline  
Old January 30th, 2018, 08:42 AM   #23
end capitalism now
 
right to left's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
Cuba has the world's third-largest cobalt reserves.

So let's poison US-Cuba relationship for some votes in Florida next time around....
Show me how much cobalt sulphides can be produced from their nickel reserves(that's where it's coming from). Just as with oil, the costs of getting it out of the ground and refining it for use determine the value. Cuba is listed as the 6th largest producer of cobalt in the world. But that pie chart on the Bloomberg article showed a huge 60% slice belonging to the Congo,with everyone else mere slivers of the pie. The message intended by the Bloomberg writer was that a global mass conversion to electric cars can't find enough cobalt and other essential resources even factoring in putting more mining operations online and using less cobalt for battery production.
right to left is online now  
Old January 30th, 2018, 08:43 AM   #24
work in progress
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: USA
Posts: 200
We won't, shouldn't stop progress. It is in all our interest to advance technology. We'll phase out fossil fuels as we explore and embrace renewable sources.
Now, if they could only do away with things like can rings and come up with something less harmful. Sorry, but some of that stuff just bugs me.
Lovebug is offline  
Old January 30th, 2018, 09:12 AM   #25
Senior Member
 
imaginethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Western Slope, Colorado
Posts: 60,008
Quote:
Originally Posted by right to left View Post
Show me how much cobalt sulphides can be produced from their nickel reserves(that's where it's coming from). Just as with oil, the costs of getting it out of the ground and refining it for use determine the value. Cuba is listed as the 6th largest producer of cobalt in the world. But that pie chart on the Bloomberg article showed a huge 60% slice belonging to the Congo,with everyone else mere slivers of the pie. The message intended by the Bloomberg writer was that a global mass conversion to electric cars can't find enough cobalt and other essential resources even factoring in putting more mining operations online and using less cobalt for battery production.
It seems you're debating me, but I have nothing to debate with you on this issue. Cuba has either the second or third largest cobalt reserves, depending on the source.

I didn't bring up refining so I don't see any need for my showing you anything regarding refining.
imaginethat is offline  
Old January 30th, 2018, 09:17 AM   #26
Senior Member
 
imaginethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Western Slope, Colorado
Posts: 60,008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovebug View Post
We won't, shouldn't stop progress. It is in all our interest to advance technology. We'll phase out fossil fuels as we explore and embrace renewable sources.
Now, if they could only do away with things like can rings and come up with something less harmful. Sorry, but some of that stuff just bugs me.
I think it's time to question the maxim: Technology is good.

Think of fire. Can we say, fire is good? Not home or forest fires. The same is true for technology. Right now, it's like an exciting new drug for humankind.

But, it's dawning on humankind, slowly, that not all applications of science, technology, are beneficial, and some applications create problems downstream.
imaginethat is offline  
Old January 30th, 2018, 09:39 AM   #27
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: NM
Posts: 1,836
Sheep may safely graze

Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
I think it's time to question the maxim: Technology is good.

Think of fire. Can we say, fire is good? Not home or forest fires. The same is true for technology. Right now, it's like an exciting new drug for humankind.

But, it's dawning on humankind, slowly, that not all applications of science, technology, are beneficial, and some applications create problems downstream.
Technology is a tool - or if you like, a system of tools. It's the economy that determines what gets done in the World - & too often, clean air, water, soil have been treated as an extrinsic - that is, outside the scope of pricing & including it as a factor in the costs of a finished product.

Pricing is a set of tradeoffs - we (the US) raise cattle out West, often on public land - fatten them up (there's some damage to the pasturage & small streams & creeks), ship them to a railhead, ship them to holding areas for feed & health inspections, ship them to butcher, ship individually wrapped cuts to retail. The feed & water & transport costs are steadily rising.

"Farming of beef cattle[edit]
"Beef cattle are raised and fed using a variety of methods, including feedlots, free range, ranching, backgrounding and Intensive animal farming. Typically, the production of one pound (0.45 kg) of cooked beef requires 27 lb (12 kg) of fodder, over 200 US gal (760 l; 170 imp gal) of water and nearly three hundred square feet (28 m2) of land.[14]"
from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beef

(My emphasis - more @ the URL)

We need to account for all those costs in the price of the finished product. Or develop products with much-reduced environmental or incidental costs - or even some combination of the two.
hoosier88 is offline  
Old January 30th, 2018, 09:50 AM   #28
work in progress
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: USA
Posts: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
I think it's time to question the maxim: Technology is good.

Think of fire. Can we say, fire is good? Not home or forest fires. The same is true for technology. Right now, it's like an exciting new drug for humankind.

But, it's dawning on humankind, slowly, that not all applications of science, technology, are beneficial, and some applications create problems downstream.
As with most new things, the kinks can be worked out. But you are right, and I have always said "don't put the cart before the horse".
Lovebug is offline  
Old January 30th, 2018, 03:36 PM   #29
Senior Member
 
BubbaJones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 7,550
Quote:
Originally Posted by RNG View Post
Where will you get the hydrogen? That is still not ever explained as far as I can see.
That's actually not that hard to answer. Any plant that makes chlorine whether for sale or internal use is throwing away hydrogen. Some nuclear reactors, depending on the design, also make hydrogen as part of the process. Again this is largely thrown away.

The largest source would be power plants. Just about every plant in the country idles down generators at night. Any of them could use that extra generation capacity to create hydrogen. Of course the cleaner the plant, the cleaner the footprint of hydrogen.

But even if it comes from an older coal fired plant, because the power train in the car is, at minimum, twice as efficient as an ICE there is an energy and pollution savings.
BubbaJones is offline  
Old January 30th, 2018, 04:08 PM   #30
RNG
Senior Member
 
RNG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Between everywhere
Posts: 30,201
Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbaJones View Post
That's actually not that hard to answer. Any plant that makes chlorine whether for sale or internal use is throwing away hydrogen. Some nuclear reactors, depending on the design, also make hydrogen as part of the process. Again this is largely thrown away.

The largest source would be power plants. Just about every plant in the country idles down generators at night. Any of them could use that extra generation capacity to create hydrogen. Of course the cleaner the plant, the cleaner the footprint of hydrogen.

But even if it comes from an older coal fired plant, because the power train in the car is, at minimum, twice as efficient as an ICE there is an energy and pollution savings.
I don't know how much the efficiency of fuel cells has increased in the past 10 years but in 2008 I did a study on them and fuel to wheel efficiency of them was about equal to a diesel car at the time, about 22%.

If you are getting hydrogen from an existing power plant I also question the benefit in terms of CO2 production as electrolysis is only 60% efficient.

Another practical problem is that platinum electrodes are needed, and for commercial scale they would need to be huge. Last time I checked, platinum was 3 times the price of gold.

Low cost water electrolysis is another one of the technologies that will happen in about 10 years every time it is talked about, and has been for the past 50 years.

I'm not familiar with the chlorine plant process or the nuke byproduct. I'll look into it.

But another issue is that if you took all the wind power generated in the US in 2016 plus all the name plate output of all the PV cells in the US and used that to make hydrogen, it would only be 3% of the energy content of the gasoline being used in the US. (This was a hurried back of the envelope type calculation, feel free to check my numbers.)

So that future would need a lot of things to happen.

If I get bored, I might do a study on comparable efficiency of EVs.
RNG is offline  
Reply

  Defending The Truth Political Forum > Political Issues > Money and Finance > Economics

Tags
car, crunch, dreams, electric, hype, meets, metal, reality, resoure, run, scarcity



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Special Report on Brexit/Fantasy Meets Reality Toto2 Current Events 0 June 25th, 2016 12:53 PM
Day is done Shut down no big deal, all hype TNVolunteer73 Current Events 13 October 2nd, 2013 04:41 PM
Budget Crunch Forces A New Approach To Prisons npr Current Events 0 February 14th, 2011 08:01 PM
Hype tyrone_det Politicians 6 November 7th, 2008 01:39 AM


Facebook Twitter RSS Feed



Copyright © 2005-2013 Defending The Truth. All rights reserved.