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Old January 14th, 2018, 08:31 AM   #51
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@guy39

Although (based on my reading of goober's post) I don't agree with your sentiment that he is an "elitist load of bullsh't" (as I think you are taking a hardline view on his positon), I do agree with the bigger picture you are presenting.

It is not at all necessitated to receive formal training in a subject to be educated on it (and in some/many cases, it can actually be much less efficient to go the "formal" route --particularly in the modern world).

Consider, e-learning has democratized learning and made the highest quality education (in a number of areas) available to everyone. With projects such as MITOpencourseware, Yale/Harvard/UC/ect. opencourseware, MOOC's, ect. even a person anywhere in the world caught up in extreme poverty (as long as they have access to the internet in some way) has access to an elite level education. Also, public domain book projects such as OpenLibrary.org (along with public Library Systems), and other outlets have made it so you have access to essentially all of the worlds knowledge for free.

This discussion reminds me of the movie "Good Will Hunting", which was actually a very insightful movie in many ways.
That is all well and good, but what Goober is saying is that a working person, who does not have a higher level of education is to stupid to vote. Good job trying to sugar it down to make it more palatable. I understand that. But, please just let the chips fall where they fall. Having a higher education is a good thing. That is not the issue. Demanding certain privileges because of it is not. Saying that those without do not have the intelligence to make an informed vote is elitist bullshit. As someone who did attend and graduate from a prominent academy, and trust me there was not to many black men who did, I find what Goober said very offensive and insulting.
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Old January 14th, 2018, 08:47 AM   #52
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Saying that those without do not have the intelligence to make an informed vote is elitist bullshit
@guy39

I complete agree with this. In fact, there are many reasons why a person of intelligence would intentionally not want to get themselves tangled up in the arbitrary constraints of the formal education system (as it tends to be highly restrictive to freedom of though & exploration--certainly as compared to self-study). The potential issue with self-study only lies in whether the individual knows where to look in order to acquire credible knowledge and such--not if it is actually possible or not (it clearly is--in fact, even in most formal settings, the bulk of the material is typically learned through a directed form of self-study).

This was also actually explored in the movie "Good Will Hunting" (which, as you may be able to tell, I am quite fond of for a variety of reasons). You would expect a truly, highly advanced mind to come from outside of the formal system because by it's nature, the formal system imposes high levels of constraints on its pupils
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Old January 14th, 2018, 08:54 AM   #53
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That is all well and good, but what Goober is saying is that a working person, who does not have a higher level of education is to stupid to vote. Good job trying to sugar it down to make it more palatable. I understand that. But, please just let the chips fall where they fall. Having a higher education is a good thing. That is not the issue. Demanding certain privileges because of it is not. Saying that those without do not have the intelligence to make an informed vote is elitist bullshit. As someone who did attend and graduate from a prominent academy, and trust me there was not to many black men who did, I find what Goober said very offensive and insulting.
How can a voter evaluate a candidates proposed policies without any understanding of economics?
I am all for education, if someone goes to a trade school, they learn a trade, but they should also be exposed to art and music and literature and science and economics.
I'm not saying anything bad about people who were denied a complete education, I am saying that going forward, our goal should be an educated society.
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Old January 14th, 2018, 09:17 AM   #54
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How can a voter evaluate a candidates proposed policies without any understanding of economics?
I am all for education, if someone goes to a trade school, they learn a trade, but they should also be exposed to art and music and literature and science and economics.
I'm not saying anything bad about people who were denied a complete education, I am saying that going forward, our goal should be an educated society.
Yes you are saying something bad. Either your being obtuse or you yourself are not even aware. Turn on a radio if you want to be exposed to music. Furthermore why do you get to define what a complete education is? This is 2018. There is plenty of art and music to be exposed to if a person chooses to. STEM academics should be the core of our primary education. High school should be ramping up their shop and welding courses. Art and music is great. But the reality is were talking about preparing people for careers. Art and music may do that for some but for the great many it does not. As far as economics people are exposed to economics. Its called a checking account. Its called receiving a pay check and deciding what to do with that pay check. You really do live in a bubble.

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Old January 14th, 2018, 09:23 AM   #55
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@guy39

I complete agree with this. In fact, there are many reasons why a person of intelligence would intentionally not want to get themselves tangled up in the arbitrary constraints of the formal education system (as it tends to be highly restrictive to freedom of though & exploration--certainly as compared to self-study). The potential issue with self-study only lies in whether the individual knows where to look in order to acquire credible knowledge and such--not if it is actually possible or not (it clearly is--in fact, even in most formal settings, the bulk of the material is typically learned through a directed form of self-study).

This was also actually explored in the movie "Good Will Hunting" (which, as you may be able to tell, I am quite fond of for a variety of reasons). You would expect a truly, highly advanced mind to come from outside of the formal system because by it's nature, the formal system imposes high levels of constraints on its pupils
Formal education has its place. It certainly goes a long way in developing problem solving skills in various situations. At the end of the day though, all these tools are supposed to be able to prepare us for life and its challenges. Unfortunately there are those among us that think its supposed to help us to enjoy life. I contend that one can not have enjoyment if they do not posses the means in which to live it.
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Old January 14th, 2018, 09:49 AM   #56
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Formal education has its place. It certainly goes a long way in developing problem solving skills in various situations. At the end of the day though, all these tools are supposed to be able to prepare us for life and its challenges. Unfortunately there are those among us that think its supposed to help us to enjoy life. I contend that one can not have enjoyment if they do not posses the means in which to live it.
I agree it has it's place and can be an exceptionally useful resource (one that I am currently capitalizing on actually). However, what tends to get lost in the mainstream picture is that is one resource of achieving these abilities amongst others & it ultimately doesn't matter whether you learned Algebra from instructor "X", "Y", "Z" in lecture or online course, via a tutor, or by reading "Algebra for Dummies" independently, ect. ect. as long as you get there (Note: Algebra is merely used as an example topic here).
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Old January 14th, 2018, 10:34 AM   #57
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I agree it has it's place and can be an exceptionally useful resource (one that I am currently capitalizing on actually). However, what tends to get lost in the mainstream picture is that is one resource of achieving these abilities amongst others & it ultimately doesn't matter whether you learned Algebra from instructor "X", "Y", "Z" in lecture or online course, via a tutor, or by reading "Algebra for Dummies" independently, ect. ect. as long as you get there (Note: Algebra is merely used as an example topic here).
Well stated
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Old January 14th, 2018, 12:01 PM   #58
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I am a huge fan of education, for the sake of the quality of life of the individual.
Marketable skills are important, but that's just part of it, people need enough education about the world, the economy, science and nature to make informed choices in the ballot box.
It's wrong to saddle people with debt if those people want to become informed voters.
Education should be freely available to everyone.
The great push to free education is what fueled the economic development of the country, but the levels of education that made sense in the 19th century are woefully inadequate for the world of tomorrow.

Sure, a kid who goes to trade school and gets a plumbing license, will live in a nice house, and enjoy a relatively comfortable life, but when to comes to voting, this person won't have the ability to make an informed choice, and the nation suffers.
Education benefits the society, and the society should fund it most generously.


Have you talked to any plumbers lately, Goober?? You'd be surprised at how informed they are.
I've taught adult classes through the years: technology, social media, piano, music hit and lit, theater, choral/vocal coaching, creative writing, blogs.....and I've had my share of plumbers, electricians, nurses, business owners, real estate agents, accountants, etc. Many of these adults did not finish college--they opted for vocational training--but kept taking classes as adults AND as seniors. They had this passion for learning and they were really smart. I loved every moment I spent with them. They questioned authority and put me through my paces. Exhilarating experiences. Don't sell them short.
AND YES--education benefits society and we have not funded it as we should.
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Old January 14th, 2018, 12:02 PM   #59
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Formal education has its place. It certainly goes a long way in developing problem solving skills in various situations. At the end of the day though, all these tools are supposed to be able to prepare us for life and its challenges. Unfortunately there are those among us that think its supposed to help us to enjoy life. I contend that one can not have enjoyment if they do not posses the means in which to live it.


Well stated, Guy. Well stated.
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Old January 14th, 2018, 01:45 PM   #60
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Have you talked to any plumbers lately, Goober?? You'd be surprised at how informed they are.
I've taught adult classes through the years: technology, social media, piano, music hit and lit, theater, choral/vocal coaching, creative writing, blogs.....and I've had my share of plumbers, electricians, nurses, business owners, real estate agents, accountants, etc. Many of these adults did not finish college--they opted for vocational training--but kept taking classes as adults AND as seniors. They had this passion for learning and they were really smart. I loved every moment I spent with them. They questioned authority and put me through my paces. Exhilarating experiences. Don't sell them short.
AND YES--education benefits society and we have not funded it as we should.
What I am talking about is the budget driven stripping of music and art from the curriculum, You taught people, people who were seeking education.
I'm all for that, I want more of it, I am for lifelong learning.
Education is an investment in the future.

There was guy who made millions, he went back to his public elementary school, in a neighborhood that had gone downhill, and while he was addressing the kids, he announced that he would pay for their college, all they had to do was get accepted, these were like 3rd graders, but knowing they could go to college, every kid in that class ended up going to college.

It's the best way to create an egalitarian society.
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