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Old January 11th, 2015, 06:25 AM   #31
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And how many of those are Bachelors of Arts or Psychology?
Preaching to the choir there, but will making college free change the ratio of BA to BS students?

There isn't a shortage of engineers or business majors. Employers want to hire people experienced so they can contribute as soon as they sit down at depressed wages.

Further flooding the market with college grads won't help, it will only result in a college degree being mandatory to work at Taco Bell.

Creating an environment that creates technical jobs, increasing demand instead of supply is the key.

The largest problem with the US educational system was created by GWB with his No Child Left behind. It lowered expectations and standards and the quality of students graduating from the public secondary education system.


Half of college grads can't find full-time jobs - CBS News

"Forbes majored in English, but a recent study found employers most likely to hire graduates with engineering (69 percent), business (63 percent), accounting (53 percent) or computer science degrees (49 percent).

Another study by Rutgers University found more than a quarter of recent grads (27 percent) said their jobs have them working below the level of their education, the same percentage that have moved in with their parents to save money.

The median salary for recession-era grads in their first job is $27,000, about $3,000 less than those who graduated before the recession began. "
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Old January 11th, 2015, 07:53 AM   #32
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A guy at our coffee klatch said that Obama suggested that it be paid for by lottery revenue. A good idea I think. Another guy thought that was wrong because he claims lotteries are a tax on the stupid.

I don't agree. No one makes you buy a lottery ticket but try not paying taxes. (Unless you are a politician or a senior member of the administration, of course.)
The same lottery money that was suppose to be going to education? Ya, that's working great....NOT!
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Old January 11th, 2015, 08:42 AM   #33
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Several European countries offer free or very low cost college educations. Their thinking is, the people that attend college will most likely earn higher incomes, and therefore repay the cost of their education, via taxes, several times over the course of their careers.

The real value of the minimum wage has fallen 25% over the last 2 decades. At the same time, tuition at most state colleges has risen more than 200%.
I agree with lower cost colleges. In order to achieve that, we have to look at why college is costing so much. If we look at that, we find enormous amounts spend on beautifying college campuses, and wages paid to administrators. We also find colleges forcing classes on students that have nothing to do with their choice of intended careers , merely to drive up the colleges income.
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Old January 11th, 2015, 08:53 AM   #34
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If they enforce at minimum a "C" high school average and insist on it being maintained while being financed through college, I'm ALL FOR IT 100% - I think it's shameful that our kids are being graduated from college with 100k+ school loans to pay back.
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Old January 11th, 2015, 08:55 AM   #35
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We also find colleges forcing classes on students that have nothing to do with their choice of intended careers , merely to drive up the colleges income.
No, that is NOT the reason; the reason is to obtain a well-rounded EDUCATION. A college education is not intended to substitute for a trade school. The two should not be confused.
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Old January 11th, 2015, 10:24 AM   #36
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No, that is NOT the reason; the reason is to obtain a well-rounded EDUCATION. A college education is not intended to substitute for a trade school. The two should not be confused.
OK, here goes my tome on advanced education, modelled somewhat on the system in Alberta. Yes, Tristan, I agree that a University should be for developing thought and academics, both in the arts, soft science and hard sciences. There is an argument that medicine, dentistry, engineering and law should not be at universities as they are closer to being trades than an academic pursuit. But over the years people have taken to considering a university degree as something of a ticket to a good job. And that is wrong.

In the old days we had trade schools. These were for the dummies. People thought that plumbing, car mechanic and carpentry were low skilled critters and the trade schools of the time reflected that. Slowly trade schools became technical colleges, largely with the development of the transistor. And people also recognized that with the continued advances in technology, the old trades needed sitdown classes as well as an organized apprenticeship program and they moved to the tech schools.

But more kids wanted more education and so a two more classes of educational facilities developed. We have schools called universities, but they are feeders, doing the first couple of years of academic subject and then kids move to a major university, and we have community colleges. These community colleges have much more job oriented programs like medical records tech, dental tech, legal secretary, admin assistant (what secretaries are called now) lab techs and such. There is some crossover between the community colleges and the "Institutes of Technology" but it does do the job. So I assumed Obama was talking about our type of community college, rather than my favorite ancient Polynesian basket weaving techniques courses.
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Old January 11th, 2015, 10:35 AM   #37
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A guy at our coffee klatch said that Obama suggested that it be paid for by lottery revenue. A good idea I think. Another guy thought that was wrong because he claims lotteries are a tax on the stupid.

I don't agree. No one makes you buy a lottery ticket but try not paying taxes. (Unless you are a politician or a senior member of the administration, of course.)
I agree about it being a tax by stealth...on those that can least afford to buy them...

BTW: here, in Oz, they don't tax winnings...unless you are a professional (meaning, registered for the GST) gambler.
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Old January 11th, 2015, 10:39 AM   #38
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OK, here goes my tome on advanced education, modelled somewhat on the system in Alberta. Yes, Tristan, I agree that a University should be for developing thought and academics, both in the arts, soft science and hard sciences. There is an argument that medicine, dentistry, engineering and law should not be at universities as they are closer to being trades than an academic pursuit. But over the years people have taken to considering a university degree as something of a ticket to a good job. And that is wrong.

In the old days we had trade schools. These were for the dummies. People thought that plumbing, car mechanic and carpentry were low skilled critters and the trade schools of the time reflected that. Slowly trade schools became technical colleges, largely with the development of the transistor. And people also recognized that with the continued advances in technology, the old trades needed sitdown classes as well as an organized apprenticeship program and they moved to the tech schools.

But more kids wanted more education and so a two more classes of educational facilities developed. We have schools called universities, but they are feeders, doing the first couple of years of academic subject and then kids move to a major university, and we have community colleges. These community colleges have much more job oriented programs like medical records tech, dental tech, legal secretary, admin assistant (what secretaries are called now) lab techs and such. There is some crossover between the community colleges and the "Institutes of Technology" but it does do the job. So I assumed Obama was talking about our type of community college, rather than my favorite ancient Polynesian basket weaving techniques courses.
A true and accurate appraisal. I am only guesing here...seeing as you are from Canada and me from Oz...but trade schools are quite well developed here and so are the jobs that wait for the grads. We use a TAFE school in tandem with physical apprenticeships out in the field.

TAFE: Technical And Further Education...which approximates Associate Degrees at a Community College, I imagine.
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Old January 11th, 2015, 01:24 PM   #39
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If you keep the government in strong fiscal shape it is doable with a minimum tax burdern

TN is the 47th state in taxes. and TN Can do so without busting it's budget.

In fact TN is ALREADY doing this thanks to our Current Governor... Who like the Stupid Sarah Palin, gets the state into strong fiscal footing. Rainy day funds, Zero Highway debt.
Actually, Tennessee has had a scholarship program, paid for by the state's participation in a couple of lotteries, for several years. The new program is simply an expansion of the existing programs and takes money from those existing programs.
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Old January 11th, 2015, 01:48 PM   #40
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OK, here goes my tome on advanced education, modelled somewhat on the system in Alberta. Yes, Tristan, I agree that a University should be for developing thought and academics, both in the arts, soft science and hard sciences. There is an argument that medicine, dentistry, engineering and law should not be at universities as they are closer to being trades than an academic pursuit. But over the years people have taken to considering a university degree as something of a ticket to a good job. And that is wrong.

In the old days we had trade schools. These were for the dummies. People thought that plumbing, car mechanic and carpentry were low skilled critters and the trade schools of the time reflected that. Slowly trade schools became technical colleges, largely with the development of the transistor. And people also recognized that with the continued advances in technology, the old trades needed sitdown classes as well as an organized apprenticeship program and they moved to the tech schools.

But more kids wanted more education and so a two more classes of educational facilities developed. We have schools called universities, but they are feeders, doing the first couple of years of academic subject and then kids move to a major university, and we have community colleges. These community colleges have much more job oriented programs like medical records tech, dental tech, legal secretary, admin assistant (what secretaries are called now) lab techs and such. There is some crossover between the community colleges and the "Institutes of Technology" but it does do the job. So I assumed Obama was talking about our type of community college, rather than my favorite ancient Polynesian basket weaving techniques courses.
The fly in the ointment here, is that the highly educated idiots that run the vast majority of our school systems, still "look" at the trades as being for dummies. I was working in the school system when the transition from trade school to tech college was taking place. The first thing the academics in charge did was kill all incentive for someone to become an instructor. They crippled the entire trade system. On top of having to have X years of in the field job experience you now had to have a masters degree in education to reach the top income level. No master degree ?? You were limited to a little over half the top pay scale, and the top scale wasn't that great to start with.

I actually provide annual update technical training for the tech college instructors in multiple states. To a person they complain that their biggest issue is the quality of the students they are given to teach.

Especially at the high school level, they still have that 1960's mind set. Shuffle the marginal students off to the trades. The worst is automotive. People just don't understand that todays cars have multiple computers controlling everything in the car. Yet they think some kid that can barely read and write is going to make a good mechanic.
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