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Old September 2nd, 2015, 05:37 AM   #21
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Actually Gödel's incompleteness theorem should be put in context. There are 3 things that destroyed the idea of "divine" math and science which are, in order, Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, Gödel's incompleteness theorem, and quantum theory. Before these, the Enlightenment had produced such success that people felt that the power of math and science were limitless. This is the kind of human arrogance that the Bible warns against, but because math and science are fundamentally sound, they could actually prove their own limitations.

Heisenberg's uncertainty principle says that by very act of observing a small object, one disturbs it which makes knowing its precise location and momentum impossible. This destroyed the Enlightenment fantasy of being able to precisely determine the future of a deterministic system.

With the development of math, mathematicians worked hard to develop a perfect mathematical system where all true theorems could be proven from a set of axioms. Many attempts to do this were made. But then Gödel published his incompleteness theorem which mathematically proved that this is impossible. I read this paper a long time ago but what I remember is that Gödel mapped theorems to numbers and then developed theorems about these sets of numbers, and so was able to apply set theory to theorems themselves, and so he turned math on itself to prove that there will always be theorems that are true but are unprovable.

Quantum theory is the most devastating in its effect on science. It says that tiny particles only really exist as a probability distribution of location and momentum. This is as far from determinism as one can get. It is also a violation of common sense. The double-slit experiment proves quantum theory to be right and common sense to be wrong. You can read about it here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment

Quantum theory bring up basic philosophical issues. Philosophically it is very contrary to Plato's view of the world, but it fits perfectly with my view and the view of the Old Testament. I won't try to explain this here.

I grew up on math and science, reading original papers like Gödel's. Math and science is what I did for fun, and I read the hard core stuff, not the popular fluff. Athena and others here embrace math and science as an alternative to religion because they really understand nothing; not math, not science, and not religion. I understand all of these which is why I support all of them, each for its own purpose.
Thank you. I didn't know that "Divine Math" had a history, and that according to some, divine math is a concept held by those holding the abstinence and "intelligent design" concepts. "Divine math" suffers from a paucity of information about it or even a solid definition. These folks have combined divine math and intelligent design:
Divine Design is a computer directed multimedia lecture presentation series which gives glory to God the Father Almighty as the Designer of all. Mathematics is shown to be "the alphabet with which God has written the universe." (Galileo) Technology is shown to be man's attempt at mimicking God's designs.
Divine Design

Or, look at this!!!
DIVINE MATHEMATICS OF SALVATION

More than ever before, we desperately need to answer the question, “What does Modern Judaizing look like?” The Judaizers were, of course, false brethren who--in the days of the Apostles--secretly came into a newly found church to spy out the freedom that Christians had in Christ. We don’t have people creeping into our churches insisting that we need Christ plus circumcision to be saved. We naively laugh at the idea that such nonsense could ever happen in Calvinistic and Reformed churches today. So, can we simply wipe our brows with a sigh of relief and go forward knowing that we are not susceptible to such a perversion of the Gospel? Do we only see in the doctrine of Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses a false Gospel and "another Jesus?" How are we to apply the teaching of Galatians to our own lives? Is it to be found in certain ecclesiastical settings in which doctrinal distinctions are taken seriously by men who profess to believe them--as some have recently suggested? How are we to understand in a careful manner a modern application of the problem of the Judaizers?
Divine Mathematics of Salvation | The Christward Collective

I couldn't/didn't read any farther....

I grew up on science. Math just accompanied science to me. Though I was and am adept in doing addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division in my head and quickly, I had no special love for stand-alone math, well except maybe geometry and calculus, which I did enjoy and found "easy" as I usually could visualize what was going on.

I see the wisdom in selecting Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, Gödel's incompleteness theorem, and quantum theory for erasing any basis for a deterministic universe. Of course, at the macro level some systems indeed appear to be deterministic. Then, at the unseen level we've got all these "Schrödinger's cats" roaming around. Presently, science can't exactly connect the quantum and the Newtonian, but that's no reason to assume they are disconnected.

As I studied quantum theory and began to grasp it, one of my first impressions was: "Ah, this is the math and science way of saying 'With God all things are possible'."

Undoubtedly, faith healing, crystal power, "the power of positive thinking," and placebos are ways of initiating events on a quantum level that have macro effects. Currently, our empirical observations and understanding of the placebo effect approximates our understanding of radio waves pre-Marconi. Haughty voices similar to those who initially rejected relativity classify the placebo effect as pseudoscience.

They must, for controlling or even empirically describing the effect remains out of their ability, and that's very upsetting to those who hold to another form of divine math, the form that "drives out any need for God" rendering God and the Flying Spaghetti Monster as co-equals, the form that places supreme confidence in the ability of math and science to, in time, answer all inquiries into the nature and origin of the universe and life.
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Old September 2nd, 2015, 05:39 AM   #22
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most such studies are in cancer. there is no consensus, no clear pattern of any particular attitude that is linked to better survival. people are too variable, the same behavior, say going to church, or doing yoga, is engaging in new and positive things for some, but is run of the mill day to day living for others. for some people its in their nature to fight back hard, for others its in their nature to roll with the punches. to deal with cancer well, these two need to behave totally differently.

and i dont think divine math has much to do with it
Probably not, but what is going on?
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Old September 2nd, 2015, 06:25 AM   #23
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Math was considered divine up until research started challenging the Abrahamic creation stories. It's a shame since whether some things from the book of Enoch are physically accurate has little bearing on the rest of the religion.
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Old September 2nd, 2015, 06:43 AM   #24
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Math was considered divine up until research started challenging the Abrahamic creation stories. It's a shame since whether some things from the book of Enoch are physically accurate has little bearing on the rest of the religion.
Please talk about some of those things.
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Old September 2nd, 2015, 06:48 AM   #25
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Please talk about some of those things.
I'm just acknowledging, vaguely, that a lot of the things in the Old Testament come from even older texts or historical accounts. The flood and the story of Adam and Eve exist in things that predate the OT. The very early religion of the Hebrews (people who predated the Jews and were eventually enslaved by Egypt) was an oral tradition.

It's somewhat similar to how the New Testament was originally an oral tradition which is probably how stories seemingly taken from other religions, like Buddhism, found their way in there.
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Old September 2nd, 2015, 06:55 AM   #26
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For example, there's a mentioning in the bible that Jesus went to the underworld when he died and it's sometimes argued that he saved the souls while there or by his resurrection. It's similar to a story of Buddha going to hell and saving some of the souls there. It's not impossible that the Buddhist story influenced the Christian story since the Buddhist story came first.

One could argue that metaphysically, people seem to have an instinct that a hell or an underworld exists and that the souls there need to be saved. The spiritual hero figure is someone who has the power to overcome such a place. This is a pretty common idea in many cultures and the idea that we should reject the value such a concept has because it seems unlikely that Adam and Eve existed (or whatever else you might come up with) seems shallow to me.
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Old September 2nd, 2015, 02:12 PM   #27
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Everyone should read Gödel's incompleteness theorem.

http://www.research.ibm.com/people/h...n00-goedel.pdf

It shows that math isn't divine, and besides it is one of the coolest things I have ever read with real twist at the end.
I think our decision of if math is divine or not is a matter of interpretation.

Phi is not just a number, but a happening. So are all the numbers 1 through 10 a happening. I think it is a mistake to think of a number as nothing but quantity or a placeholder in a line of numbers because they also have qualities. I offer this as part of the explanation of sacred math: the following is from "A Beginner's Guide to Constructing the Universe" by Michael S. Schneider

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"We can understand the Triad by noticing where it occurs in our lives. It seems natural to divide any whole into three parts. A beginning, middle, and end, birth, life, and death, the three dimensions of space (length, width, height) and time (past, present, future), three dialy meals corresponding with the sun's three stages (dawn, noon, dusk), phases of a chess game (beginning, middle, endgame), ... these are just some of the ways in which we frame and express what we feel to be true about the inherent tripartite wholeness of the universe."
Another way to explain the concept is to say "The numbers 1 through 9 represent the non-material principles of coherence immanent in and governing all phenomenal experience. " From The Mayan Factor" by Jose Arguelles.

I think our difficulty with understanding sacred math is linear logic which is favored by the west, and materialist thinking that has shaped our consciousness since Rome. All cultures frame consciousness and restrict what can be known. To know spiritual truth, we must get our minds out of the box of western culture.

Last edited by Athena; September 2nd, 2015 at 02:15 PM.
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Old September 2nd, 2015, 02:44 PM   #28
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I think our decision of if math is divine or not is a matter of interpretation.
Everything is a matter of interpretation, but you had better think through the consequences of your decisions. I mean show me a mathematical proof that "It better begin with family" as your other thread is titled? Good luck. You make math the center of your worldview and you lose the family. You make a sound religion the center of your worldview and you save the family. So which do you prefer?
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Old September 2nd, 2015, 09:32 PM   #29
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Everything is a matter of interpretation, but you had better think through the consequences of your decisions. I mean show me a mathematical proof that "It better begin with family" as your other thread is titled? Good luck. You make math the center of your worldview and you lose the family. You make a sound religion the center of your worldview and you save the family. So which do you prefer?
I understand some people of math and science have become excessively materialistic, but this does not have to be so. There are many Christians who believe math is the language of God and believe the advances in math validate their belief in God. While materialistic people are seeing spiritual possibilities because of where the math is taking them.

Here is an interesting explanation of the mind of God as perceived with physics and math. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jremlZvNDuk

Now here are Christians claiming math confirms their God exist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZQoaI-K3ro

The point is making math my method of seeing the universe does not separate me from God or family, but gives me clearer vision, not distorted by human ego and emotional distractions such as hating Americans, or unwillingness to go along with others.
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Old September 2nd, 2015, 10:18 PM   #30
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Technically math fails in simple areas like calculating circles. I've always viewed it as man's attempt to understand natural phenomenon while some view it as a source of power and not as a representation. This doesn't mean that math can't be spiritual but I think it belongs in its proper context.
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