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Old September 9th, 2016, 06:15 AM   #71
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People, "Which is better?" is a false dilemma.

For some functions, capitalism works best. For others, socialism is the better choice. Saying that one form of governance is superior to the other means overlooking the failures of each system.

No one needs to list the failures of each, or the attributes. Any reasonably awake person knows the strengths and shortcomings, through misapplication, of each.

The debate of which is better is an endless debate because neither is better. This debate provides cover from the economic and political forces that, capitalist or socialist, seek to rule your life, and do rule it.

You just think that they don't, that all the bad guys are either capitalists or socialists.

They're not.
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Old September 9th, 2016, 07:34 AM   #72
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What position, you clown? Socialism is obviously better than capitalism because it gives working people their lives and their countries back and puts you thieving scoundrels and liars in educational establishments where you can learn what humanity is like. No socialist is lord of anything, you capitalist clown - socialism is democracy. The only arguments for capitalism are the arguments for living in caves - it makes better things possible. I don't think you can possibly be human since you keep quacking like a duck. I imagine since you are an extreme-right yank nutter you equate socialism with the capitalist state. Read some history and sober up! Tell me please what you 'think' socialism to be.
Show me some Democratic Socialism in action. I would love to see it. We have examples of Socialism through out history. The NAZI party started out as Socialism. The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. I can keep going. Every time it is attempted millions of people are killed and people with guns force you to participate or die. You advocate a system that requires stealing property in order to put it in place, then tell me its all rosy. Bullshit. Please do not insult me with the Scandinavian shit either. That is no a Socialist dream no matter how bad you would like for it to be. Point to Venezuela where Socialism actually took place. Where the government came in and seized the means of production. That is a real time modern example.
The Cost of Utopian Delusions: Collectivism's 20th Century Murder Toll

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/...oIN/story.html

The Scandinavian Socialism Argument Debunked - The great liberal myth
(all claims our sourced within the above article)

Danish PM in US: Denmark is not socialist - The Local
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Old September 9th, 2016, 07:37 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
People, "Which is better?" is a false dilemma.

For some functions, capitalism works best. For others, socialism is the better choice. Saying that one form of governance is superior to the other means overlooking the failures of each system.

No one needs to list the failures of each, or the attributes. Any reasonably awake person knows the strengths and shortcomings, through misapplication, of each.

The debate of which is better is an endless debate because neither is better. This debate provides cover from the economic and political forces that, capitalist or socialist, seek to rule your life, and do rule it.

You just think that they don't, that all the bad guys are either capitalists or socialists.

They're not.
Its not a false accusation with Socialism. We have example after example of where Socialism has failed and usually results in mass killings. To just change the definition of Socialism to include idea's that do not include seizing the means of production is disingenuous. Government building roads for instance is not Socialism no matter how bad you want to use it as an example. Venezuela seizing the means of production is Socialism no matter how much you want to cry that it is not.
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Old September 9th, 2016, 08:22 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by coke View Post
Show me some Democratic Socialism in action. I would love to see it. We have examples of Socialism through out history. The NAZI party started out as Socialism. The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. I can keep going. Every time it is attempted millions of people are killed and people with guns force you to participate or die. You advocate a system that requires stealing property in order to put it in place, then tell me its all rosy. Bullshit. Please do not insult me with the Scandinavian shit either. That is no a Socialist dream no matter how bad you would like for it to be. Point to Venezuela where Socialism actually took place. Where the government came in and seized the means of production. That is a real time modern example.
The Cost of Utopian Delusions: Collectivism's 20th Century Murder Toll

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/...oIN/story.html

The Scandinavian Socialism Argument Debunked - The great liberal myth
(all claims our sourced within the above article)

Danish PM in US: Denmark is not socialist - The Local
You've applied a measure: If "the system" is working, it can't be a socialist system. It can only be socialist when it fails.

Venezuela is a bad example of a socialist economy. The "leaders" of Venezuela would be incompetent at whatever they did.
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Old September 9th, 2016, 08:56 AM   #75
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I'm not against capitalism.

I'm against unchecked capitalism.
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Old September 9th, 2016, 04:08 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
You've applied a measure: If "the system" is working, it can't be a socialist system. It can only be socialist when it fails.

Venezuela is a bad example of a socialist economy. The "leaders" of Venezuela would be incompetent at whatever they did.
I beg to differ. I have applied what is and is not Socialism. We have had other forms of economies within history that did work to a degree. Such as feudal states. Feudal states worked fine unless you had bad lords and barons. But, there was no Democratic process. Capitalism has advanced more, done more and saved more than any system that there has ever been. Socialism as brought to us from Marx and Engels is a system made up to justify jealousy of other peoples success.
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Old September 9th, 2016, 08:14 PM   #77
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I Believe it's a function of knowledge and curiosity, the more actual knowledge a person has about how the world works, the more they seek to learn, the left leaning.
People who want everything in a book, be that book a bible, a koran, a military manual, tend to be conservative.
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Old September 10th, 2016, 03:45 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coke View Post
Show me some Democratic Socialism in action. I would love to see it. We have examples of Socialism through out history. The NAZI party started out as Socialism. The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. I can keep going. Every time it is attempted millions of people are killed and people with guns force you to participate or die. You advocate a system that requires stealing property in order to put it in place, then tell me its all rosy. Bullshit. Please do not insult me with the Scandinavian shit either. That is no a Socialist dream no matter how bad you would like for it to be. Point to Venezuela where Socialism actually took place. Where the government came in and seized the means of production. That is a real time modern example.
The Cost of Utopian Delusions: Collectivism's 20th Century Murder Toll

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/...oIN/story.html

The Scandinavian Socialism Argument Debunked - The great liberal myth
(all claims our sourced within the above article)

Danish PM in US: Denmark is not socialist - The Local

Don't be more totally silly than the Devil made you, Coke. Obviously, your murderers get to work whenever working people attempt to establish democratic socialism (Paris 1871, Russia 1917, Bavaria 1919, Hungary 1919-20m etcetera). Your beloved Nazi party had to say it was socialist because everyone in Germany at the time would have pissed on anyone who tried to defend your crazy system, as you know, but if you think the likes of Krupp support democratic control by the people from whom they steal everything, you are madder than Trump. You can't steal property from thieves, clown - you just take it back from the capitalist scum. Your childish wafflings about State Capitalism just reveal that you have the mental processes of a brainwashed mentally-deficient five-year-old, but we knew that already.

Given your propensity to murder all democratic forces and that of your masters to reduce the working people to starving slaves, the tactics to be used to circumvent their sick hopes are an interesting question, but the great majority put their hopes in gaining democratic control of the capitalist State and handing control to those who do the work. Even under your loony system there are already examples of businesses run like this, as you know, but there is a constant danger of their being stolen by the thieves, so some believe in more violent methods. For myself, I think that scum like your masters are not worth demeaning ourselves to bring them to justice, and am prepared to wait until your mad system collapses totally rather than partially, as it does so often. Until then, rant on. It is like global warming - part of the inevitable sickness of capitalism.
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Old September 10th, 2016, 07:57 AM   #79
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I beg to differ. I have applied what is and is not Socialism. We have had other forms of economies within history that did work to a degree. Such as feudal states. Feudal states worked fine unless you had bad lords and barons. But, there was no Democratic process. Capitalism has advanced more, done more and saved more than any system that there has ever been. Socialism as brought to us from Marx and Engels is a system made up to justify jealousy of other peoples success.
Part of the success of capitalism was mere timing. The 18th century world was ripe for colonialism. The booty stolen from colonies enabled European powers to create capitalist empires.

Capitalism works when a nation has resources to exploit, both material and human resources. Capitalism requires an underclass, whether slaves or very low paid workers.

Pure capitalism can be real ugly, so over time layers of "democracy" have been applied to it, and the layers do help some, but overall pure capitalism has as little chance of working best for the common and individual good as does pure socialism.

It's inane to demand, "Well show me such a system that worked." Blended economies are still rather new, but just because something has never been has no bearing on whether it will ever be.

We know how pure capitalism and socialism don't work. History has established that much.
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Old September 10th, 2016, 08:08 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
Part of the success of capitalism was mere timing. The 18th century world was ripe for colonialism. The booty stolen from colonies enabled European powers to create capitalist empires.

Capitalism works when a nation has resources to exploit, both material and human resources. Capitalism requires an underclass, whether slaves or very low paid workers.

Pure capitalism can be real ugly, so over time layers of "democracy" have been applied to it, and the layers do help some, but overall pure capitalism has as little chance of working best for the common and individual good as does pure socialism.

It's inane to demand, "Well show me such a system that worked." Blended economies are still rather new, but just because something has never been has no bearing on whether it will ever be.

We know how pure capitalism and socialism don't work. History has established that much.
Another thing that factors into this, IMO is that till recently especially in the Americas, society and the economy had a very large agrarian component. And it was family farms.

Neither capitalism or socialism applies to that situation.
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