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Old September 6th, 2016, 09:18 AM   #21
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Well, all I know is that America used to be #1 globally in education statistics.

Then, we decided to "improve" our education system.

We now rate in the mid 20's globally in math and hard science statistics.

If all this brilliant reconceived math education is so terrific, why are our children so freaking stupid?!
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Old September 6th, 2016, 09:20 AM   #22
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I have been mulling for a few days about this post and addressing it. But at the risk of derailing the thread here goes. Perhaps a new thread would have been better, but Tris' post leads into my thoughts so well.

Tris, you said "No country with high statistics for academic scores use common core as a teaching method."

When I first ran into a controversy about common core I did some investigating. Common core is not a teaching method. Their official website specifically states that the system has no curriculum it advances, it has no mandated or even suggested text books. It is a set of expectations, a set of desired outcomes for children at certain stages of their education. They say that at the end of grade X, kids should know Z.

Other than teachers not wanting to be judged for competence, what's the problem?

Plus the organization makes it plain that they are looking more for relative improvement than for absolute results, so again what is the problem? If you are a decent teacher I think you should relish the chance to show it.
I graduated from HS in '67. At that time all the old, don't work anymore teaching methods were in use, as was grade retention in the case of students needing more time. I dare say I and my peers represented the highest level of educational rigor ever present in public schools.

Since then everything under the sun has been tried in public schools, and private ones too. The private schools continue turning out well-educated, able to think for themselves graduates.

Public schools continue to flounder, and part of the blame must be shouldered by uninvolved parents, but not all.

When a student doesn't know, instantaneously, that 2+2=4, how much does it matter, or how can it matter that she or he knows "why" 2+2=4?
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Old September 6th, 2016, 09:38 AM   #23
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Thank you, RNG. I was just about to jump in. Let's make sure we understand WHAT Common Core is. You are correct. Common Core are standards. They are benchmarks which indicate what students are expected to learn at each grade level. Common Core is NOT lesson plans. NOT curriculum. NOT a teaching method. Common Core standards were created for two areas: Math and English.
I can't stress this enough: While the standards set grade-specific goals, they do not define how the standards should be taught or which materials should be used to support students. So when parents blame Common Core for the weird Math or the goofy worksheets, they are not understanding the process. No Child Left Behind (GW Bush) was the precursor to Common Core.
In the 90s I participated in establishing educational goals and curriculum standards for the local school district, along with designing ILPs for those who were lagging behind, as children mature at different rates. Yes, we also implemented programs for the gifted, although those programs feel the budget axe first, every time. Very much time and energy were put into these efforts.

The results were fairly good, though no silver bullet. We simply got a head start on Colorado's CSAP program (Colorado Students' Assessment Program), a precursor to NCLB originating at the state level.

Muy main beef with Common Core or NCLB is that the federal government should stay out of public education. Not only do students' abilities vary wildly, even neighborhoods do and all attempts to impose a one-size-fits-all programs are destined to fail, destined to overall reduce student achievement in the quest for lowest acceptable denominators.
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Old September 6th, 2016, 09:41 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by tristanrobin View Post
Well, all I know is that America used to be #1 globally in education statistics.

Then, we decided to "improve" our education system.

We now rate in the mid 20's globally in math and hard science statistics.

If all this brilliant reconceived math education is so terrific, why are our children so freaking stupid?!
Well all I know is that school boards are copping out by blaming common core when it is their own curricula and methods that are failing.
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Old September 6th, 2016, 09:46 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
In the 90s I participated in establishing educational goals and curriculum standards for the local school district, along with designing ILPs for those who were lagging behind, as children mature at different rates. Yes, we also implemented programs for the gifted, although those programs feel the budget axe first, every time. Very much time and energy were put into these efforts.

The results were fairly good, though no silver bullet. We simply got a head start on Colorado's CSAP program (Colorado Students' Assessment Program), a precursor to NCLB originating at the state level.

Muy main beef with Common Core or NCLB is that the federal government should stay out of public education. Not only do students' abilities vary wildly, even neighborhoods do and all attempts to impose a one-size-fits-all programs are destined to fail, destined to overall reduce student achievement in the quest for lowest acceptable denominators.
And yet not having standards at all seems to not be working. It looks like the system you speak of above was being proactive and working towards a solution. It also appears many others were not.

I personally still put some of the blame on insisting that special needs kids be put into regular classrooms.

Yes, it's good for the special needs kid, but at what cost in both dollars and effect on the other kids?
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Old September 6th, 2016, 10:17 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
In the 90s I participated in establishing educational goals and curriculum standards for the local school district, along with designing ILPs for those who were lagging behind, as children mature at different rates. Yes, we also implemented programs for the gifted, although those programs feel the budget axe first, every time. Very much time and energy were put into these efforts.

The results were fairly good, though no silver bullet. We simply got a head start on Colorado's CSAP program (Colorado Students' Assessment Program), a precursor to NCLB originating at the state level.

Muy main beef with Common Core or NCLB is that the federal government should stay out of public education. Not only do students' abilities vary wildly, even neighborhoods do and all attempts to impose a one-size-fits-all programs are destined to fail, destined to overall reduce student achievement in the quest for lowest acceptable denominators.


Your statements show an inconsistency. First you say the feds should stay OUT of public education, but then you say students' abilities vary, neighborhoods vary and I would add STATES vary. I get what you are saying but.....
the federal government DOES have an important role to play in public education.
First it's important because it is crucial that SOME federal entity collect information on schools and teaching that would help the States establish effective school systems. It is also important to have a level playing field for states--some standards that EVERY state must *MUST* meet or exceed. As you know we have a summer home in Colorado so we have learned so much about the state and we are very impressed with what we have learned. Our primary residence is in Arizona, near Phoenix, where I taught for 10 years before retiring. Previous to living in AZ we lived/taught in Madison, WI, so I have experienced FIRST HAND the differences from state to state. Colorado schools are great. Wisconsin schools are (OR WERE before Walker) great, but Arizona schools are appalling and IF there were no standards, federal aid programs, collected data, grants, and no national awareness, Arizona public schools would be much worse.
There must be oversight. There must be accountability or states like Arizona (and I truly believe this) would CHOOSE which students to educate and which students to throw away. AS of January 2016 Arizona ranked 45th among states in the annual ranking by Education Week, which put the state’s level of school funding and its poverty achievement gap near the bottom in the nation. The current AZ GOP legislature actually "borrowed" money from our schools to pay bills. So you can understand my concern. The majority of AZ 3rd graders can't read well enough to be promoted to 4th grade, but of course they WILL be sent on because parents won't allow them to be held back. Sometimes I wish the feds would intervene aggressively in states like Arizona.
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Old September 6th, 2016, 10:19 AM   #27
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To be honest, as much as the liberal educational system has been fucked up and hurt American students. When we compare American students to the world, we are comparing an average of all our students compared to a hand picked few from the other nations.
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Old September 6th, 2016, 10:21 AM   #28
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And yet not having standards at all seems to not be working. It looks like the system you speak of above was being proactive and working towards a solution. It also appears many others were not.

I personally still put some of the blame on insisting that special needs kids be put into regular classrooms.

Yes, it's good for the special needs kid, but at what cost in both dollars and effect on the other kids?
Oh absolutely. It's not much good for the other kids and the labor required for special needs students, and I'm not talking about children with merely physical disabilities but also the ones who shit on themselves out of spite, is huge.

A cousin works with special needs students and sometimes it takes two or three people just to restrain her most "needy" students. AND, she assures me that some of the most disruptive students have parents who are in school constantly making accusations that their child isn't getting all the care he/she requires....

And the cost of teaching non-English speakers....

And the top-heavy nature of school administration, partially justified just to handle programs designed to test how well the latest pop educational methods are working....
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Old September 6th, 2016, 10:31 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Clara007 View Post
Your statements show an inconsistency. First you say the feds should stay OUT of public education, but then you say students' abilities vary, neighborhoods vary and I would add STATES vary. I get what you are saying but.....
the federal government DOES have an important role to play in public education.
First it's important because it is crucial that SOME federal entity collect information on schools and teaching that would help the States establish effective school systems. It is also important to have a level playing field for states--some standards that EVERY state must *MUST* meet or exceed. As you know we have a summer home in Colorado so we have learned so much about the state and we are very impressed with what we have learned. Our primary residence is in Arizona, near Phoenix, where I taught for 10 years before retiring. Previous to living in AZ we lived/taught in Madison, WI, so I have experienced FIRST HAND the differences from state to state. Colorado schools are great. Wisconsin schools are (OR WERE before Walker) great, but Arizona schools are appalling and IF there were no standards, federal aid programs, collected data, grants, and no national awareness, Arizona public schools would be much worse.
There must be oversight. There must be accountability or states like Arizona (and I truly believe this) would CHOOSE which students to educate and which students to throw away. AS of January 2016 Arizona ranked 45th among states in the annual ranking by Education Week, which put the state’s level of school funding and its poverty achievement gap near the bottom in the nation. The current AZ GOP legislature actually "borrowed" money from our schools to pay bills. So you can understand my concern. The majority of AZ 3rd graders can't read well enough to be promoted to 4th grade, but of course they WILL be sent on because parents won't allow them to be held back. Sometimes I wish the feds would intervene aggressively in states like Arizona.
Accountability? School boards are comprised of elected members. What sort of federal intervention can compete with the direct accountability offered by the electoral process?

Ah, but go out and ask 20 people who's on the local school board. I'd be surprised if you got one name.

Everybody wants better schools, but few are willing to do anything to have better schools. Someone else needs to do that. I'm too busy.

How many DTT-ers have volunteered time in their local schools? I put in about 15 years of being a volunteer, seeing the same faces over and over. Not so much time, 2-3 hrs/week, up to about 6-10 hrs/week when I served on the school board.

Being a school board member should be a paid, full time job imo.
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Old September 6th, 2016, 10:32 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Clara007 View Post
Your statements show an inconsistency. First you say the feds should stay OUT of public education, but then you say students' abilities vary, neighborhoods vary and I would add STATES vary. I get what you are saying but.....
the federal government DOES have an important role to play in public education.
First it's important because it is crucial that SOME federal entity collect information on schools and teaching that would help the States establish effective school systems. It is also important to have a level playing field for states--some standards that EVERY state must *MUST* meet or exceed. As you know we have a summer home in Colorado so we have learned so much about the state and we are very impressed with what we have learned. Our primary residence is in Arizona, near Phoenix, where I taught for 10 years before retiring. Previous to living in AZ we lived/taught in Madison, WI, so I have experienced FIRST HAND the differences from state to state. Colorado schools are great. Wisconsin schools are (OR WERE before Walker) great, but Arizona schools are appalling and IF there were no standards, federal aid programs, collected data, grants, and no national awareness, Arizona public schools would be much worse.
There must be oversight. There must be accountability or states like Arizona (and I truly believe this) would CHOOSE which students to educate and which students to throw away. AS of January 2016 Arizona ranked 45th among states in the annual ranking by Education Week, which put the state’s level of school funding and its poverty achievement gap near the bottom in the nation. The current AZ GOP legislature actually "borrowed" money from our schools to pay bills. So you can understand my concern. The majority of AZ 3rd graders can't read well enough to be promoted to 4th grade, but of course they WILL be sent on because parents won't allow them to be held back. Sometimes I wish the feds would intervene aggressively in states like Arizona.
why?
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