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Old January 7th, 2018, 02:27 PM   #91
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What a load. You have no idea what you're talking about. Special needs children MUST be mainstreamed. That's not to say they shouldn't have special classes for their specific needs....because they should. The best solution is to mainstream and specialize.

Putting special needs children into classrooms with their peers who have NO disabilities is key in preparing all types of students for the big, wide world that awaits them--to have experience with and understand how to handle its difficulties. Inclusion is important for the disabled so they see the possibilities--the challenges ahead. Inclusion is invaluable for their peers because THEY too will have to work with all sorts of people.
Here I will again disagree with you. I will grudgingly admit that it is probably best for the special needs student, but at what cost?

The far higher number of aids needed and the often disruptive behaviours of those kids hurt the learning of the others.

I don't know of many work environments where that type of uncontrolled behavior is an ever-present thing.

Both my kids still complain about the classroom issues that were caused by special needs kids in their classrooms.
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Old January 7th, 2018, 02:27 PM   #92
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What a load. You have no idea what you're talking about. Special needs children MUST be mainstreamed. That's not to say they shouldn't have special classes for their specific needs....because they should. The best solution is to mainstream and specialize.

Putting special needs children into classrooms with their peers who have NO disabilities is key in preparing all types of students for the big, wide world that awaits them--to have experience with and understand how to handle its difficulties. Inclusion is important for the disabled so they see the possibilities--the challenges ahead. Inclusion is invaluable for their peers because THEY too will have to work with all sorts of people.
Putting a 14 year old, wheel chair bound child, wearing diapers, with the mentality of 1 year old in mainstream educational situations is a bad idea. You are advocating diminishing the education of many for the sake of one. Do you think behavior disorder education centers are bad to?
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Old January 7th, 2018, 02:33 PM   #93
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Children have a right to a public primary education until age 21. Many special needs children will never be able to read, do basic math. Tying there own shoes will be a major accomplishment. The physical problems that many of them have compound this. There use to be centers set up that dealt with this. These children were sent to special education centers that were set up to deal with all of these issue. When no child left behind was implemented, it gave rights to the parents to demand that their child not be treated differently. That may sound good, but what it did was force school districts to make arrangements for these special need children who quite frankly was not able to participate in the education process. I understand that many parents in this situation felt like there child was entitled to a normal high school experience. Unfortunately this was not in the best interest of everyone involved. This did nothing to help with getting the basic life skills a special needs child needed. Many of these kids are wheel chair bound, with physical limitations and mental capacity problems. Imagine a 14 year old,with a diaper, that can not speak. A child of that age with the development of a 1 year old. This is a sad situation. But school districts found themselves forced with having to accept special needs children and the costs of them directly into the mainstream school, and trying to help fund a co-op or regional special needs facility. The funding was not their to do both. So, the special needs centers in many cases were closed, and each district absorbed the costs of teachers aides and specialize programs for special needs children. This increased the over all operational cost because districts could not longer share the costs of the special education requirements. Therefore all suffered in the end
Ok, then this makes sense. A lot of this has to do with parents who are oblivious to what their children actually need and insist that "nothing is wrong with my child." I was in special ed, but my condition was not as debilitating as, say, autism. Even then, once my cognitive skills became more developed I was eventually taken out of special ed. So this issue is actually a lot more variable than we all think.
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Old January 7th, 2018, 02:53 PM   #94
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Here I will again disagree with you. I will grudgingly admit that it is probably best for the special needs student, but at what cost?

The far higher number of aids needed and the often disruptive behaviours of those kids hurt the learning of the others.

I don't know of many work environments where that type of uncontrolled behavior is an ever-present thing.

Both my kids still complain about the classroom issues that were caused by special needs kids in their classrooms.


Let me tell you a story. When I first started teaching, special needs children WERE separated. In fact, they were SO separated that children like those with Down Syndrome were HOUSED in portable classrooms nowhere NEAR an actual school building or playground. I was stunned. Beautiful, loving children of all ages were segregated because they learned and looked differently. Is that what we want?
Should we lock away children because they are different?? Should we keep them hidden? Of course not.
Gradually children with autism, blindness, deafness, cognitive/emotional impairment were mainstreamed. Most of these children were not violent or disruptive. Here's what happened. The unimpaired children worked WITH those "oddly" different children. They pushed their wheel chairs, tied their shoes, zipped their jackets, escorted them to lunch, mentored them and learned one of life's great lessons: every human life matters and deserves respect. In fact, some of my students were so impacted by their relationships with the disabled/cognitively impaired, they chose professions so they could make a difference--help those in need--physical therapists, speech therapists, nurses, social workers, etc.

Having said all that, there are caveats: Children with special needs must have aides, individualized instruction, improvement programs, well-trained special ed teachers...and lots of counseling for parents.

Can these children be disruptive? YOU BET. Can so-called "NORMAL" children be disruptive? Absolutely.
AND I'll add this. Some of the most brilliant students I ever had were the worst, most unruly, undisciplined kids you'd EVER want to know. Holy terrors.

So here are the questions. WHO should be mainstreamed? AND who should be segregated?
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Old January 7th, 2018, 03:04 PM   #95
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Let me tell you a story. When I first started teaching, special needs children WERE separated. In fact, they were SO separated that children like those with Down Syndrome were HOUSED in portable classrooms nowhere NEAR an actual school building or playground. I was stunned. Beautiful, loving children of all ages were segregated because they learned and looked differently. Is that what we want?
Should we lock away children because they are different?? Should we keep them hidden? Of course not.
Gradually children with autism, blindness, deafness, cognitive/emotional impairment were mainstreamed. Most of these children were not violent or disruptive. Here's what happened. The unimpaired children worked WITH those "oddly" different children. They pushed their wheel chairs, tied their shoes, zipped their jackets, escorted them to lunch, mentored them and learned one of life's great lessons: every human life matters and deserves respect. In fact, some of my students were so impacted by their relationships with the disabled/cognitively impaired, they chose professions so they could make a difference--help those in need--physical therapists, speech therapists, nurses, social workers, etc.

Having said all that, there are caveats: Children with special needs must have aides, individualized instruction, improvement programs, well-trained special ed teachers...and lots of counseling for parents.

Can these children be disruptive? YOU BET. Can so-called "NORMAL" children be disruptive? Absolutely.
AND I'll add this. Some of the most brilliant students I ever had were the worst, most unruly, undisciplined kids you'd EVER want to know. Holy terrors.

So here are the questions. WHO should be mainstreamed? AND who should be segregated?
I'm sure there are many examples that would show you to be correct. But there are examples to show me right. Again, I suspect it isn't a situation with a one size fits all solution. But there are cases where mainstreaming a child with problems does more harm than good.
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Old January 7th, 2018, 03:33 PM   #96
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I'm sure there are many examples that would show you to be correct. But there are examples to show me right. Again, I suspect it isn't a situation with a one size fits all solution. But there are cases where mainstreaming a child with problems does more harm than good.
One size does not fit all. Individuals, their families, their school districts and their communities vary a lot. Perhaps we want to reform the questions so they make sense and make a wide range of possibilities possible?
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Old January 7th, 2018, 04:25 PM   #97
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One size does not fit all. Individuals, their families, their school districts and their communities vary a lot. Perhaps we want to reform the questions so they make sense and make a wide range of possibilities possible?
And that is one thing that governments are very poor at doing. Government wants slots, as few as possible and putting people in those slots based on simple criteria.
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Old January 7th, 2018, 04:26 PM   #98
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This entire thread demonstrates why the voucher system would be a giant leap forward in fixing our obviously broken education system.
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Old January 7th, 2018, 04:29 PM   #99
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Putting a 14 year old, wheel chair bound child, wearing diapers, with the mentality of 1 year old in mainstream educational situations is a bad idea. You are advocating diminishing the education of many for the sake of one. Do you think behavior disorder education centers are bad to?
When standardized testing is applied those children are also lumped in with the "mainstream" students, pushing the scores down.


This is another thing that is often overlooked when comparing the US to other nations we include all of our students scores in the overall numbers and we compell.all children to attend school.
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Old January 7th, 2018, 04:31 PM   #100
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When standardized testing is applied those children are also lumped in with the "mainstream" students, pushing the scores down.


This is another thing that is often overlooked when comparing the US to other nations we include all of our students scores in the overall numbers and we compell.all children to attend school.
It's also important to not be ableist. Just because one has a disability, does not mean that they are incapable of performing well in school.

These cases vary significantly.
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Last edited by Gordy; January 7th, 2018 at 04:33 PM.
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