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Old January 7th, 2018, 12:14 PM   #81
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The problem is the No Child Left Behind Act. Eliminate standardized testing.
One of the largest problems with no child left behind was it resulted in mainstreaming of special needs children. This created a huge amount of problems and increased costs on school districts.
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Old January 7th, 2018, 12:30 PM   #82
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Schools are teaching children they are special snowflakes, instead of teaching them the 3 Rs

It is the parent's job to teach to teach their children where they are special, correct them when they are not so special
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Old January 7th, 2018, 01:06 PM   #83
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I don't understand that. Why do you think standardized testing is bad?
It reduces school curriculums to just enough of what kids need to pass a test. Nobody actually learns anything of value (i.e. logic, critical thinking skills, etc.). It also doesn't take into account different learning styles, different kinds of intelligence, etc. I didn't realize how badly I was cheated out of an education until I came to college.

When I was in middle school, they actually got rid of history in order to accommodate test prep classes. A subject that I was actually interested in got axed just so schools can improve their test scores.
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Old January 7th, 2018, 01:06 PM   #84
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One of the largest problems with no child left behind was it resulted in mainstreaming of special needs children. This created a huge amount of problems and increased costs on school districts.
What do you mean by this?
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Old January 7th, 2018, 01:44 PM   #85
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It reduces school curriculums to just enough of what kids need to pass a test. Nobody actually learns anything of value (i.e. logic, critical thinking skills, etc.). It also doesn't take into account different learning styles, different kinds of intelligence, etc. I didn't realize how badly I was cheated out of an education until I came to college.

When I was in middle school, they actually got rid of history in order to accommodate test prep classes. A subject that I was actually interested in got axed just so schools can improve their test scores.
OK, that's not an argument against the concept, it's an argument against the stupid way it is applied, mostly by schools themselves, or teacher's unions.

How else are the administrators or the stakeholders like parents evaluate schools and teachers?

Even in my day the union basically protected all teachers. As far as I can tell, the only time a teacher was ever fired was due to inappropriate relationships with students, and even then some were just sent to counselling and then a different school. And from what I hear from my kids, it was worse in their day.

I have a lot of respect for most teachers. Many if not most teachers are excellent, hard working diligent workers. But who can we tell which aren't?

From my experience with my kids and grandkids, at least in our systems up here the principal of the school is a big factor. A good principal gathers good teachers and has a smooth operating organization. And that yields better results.

So standardized test would allow us to evaluate teachers, schools (ie principals) and whole systems.

BTW, in both provinces I am familiar with, by law the number of hours spent on each subject is mandated. Schools can't decide to get rid of history and spend that time on test preparing. So again, it isn't the testing, it's how it's applied.
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Old January 7th, 2018, 01:59 PM   #86
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OK, that's not an argument against the concept, it's an argument against the stupid way it is applied, mostly by schools themselves, or teacher's unions.
I'm against the concept entirely. It's virtually impossible to accurately measure intelligence. Nobody is actually learning anything of value, therefore the entire thing is counterproductive.

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How else are the administrators or the stakeholders like parents evaluate schools and teachers?

Even in my day the union basically protected all teachers. As far as I can tell, the only time a teacher was ever fired was due to inappropriate relationships with students, and even then some were just sent to counselling and then a different school. And from what I hear from my kids, it was worse in their day.

I have a lot of respect for most teachers. Many if not most teachers are excellent, hard working diligent workers. But who can we tell which aren't?

From my experience with my kids and grandkids, at least in our systems up here the principal of the school is a big factor. A good principal gathers good teachers and has a smooth operating organization. And that yields better results.

So standardized test would allow us to evaluate teachers, schools (ie principals) and whole systems.
These are all good points, but this isn't actually what happens in practice. How do you accurately evaluate school performance if no one is actually learning anything? You could talk about changing the application, but that doesn't really go far enough. The fact of the matter is that it isn't really working, and kids are getting cheated out of an education. I guess, we just need to find better ways of evaluating such things. Forcing kids into flawed testing programs isn't a very good method of doing this.

Even when I was in high school, most of my teachers hated the program and saw it as unfair to both them and the students.

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BTW, in both provinces I am familiar with, by law the number of hours spent on each subject is mandated. Schools can't decide to get rid of history and spend that time on test preparing. So again, it isn't the testing, it's how it's applied.
That wasn't the case when I was in school.
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Old January 7th, 2018, 02:02 PM   #87
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The problem is the No Child Left Behind Act. Eliminate standardized testing.


Standardized testing WAS (and still is) ONE of the problems with NCLB, Common Core and whatever comes next. In fact, most teachers AND administrators will tell you that standardized tests have had a devastating effect on public schools for a myriad of reasons, ranging from teaching to the test, tying test scores to teacher salaries, dealing with ESL students, stifling creativity, handcuffing teacher-led curriculum, not measuring student knowledge accurately, a one-size fits all mentality, top-down accountability mind set......in fact, the only people who benefit from these state tests are the companies that manufacture them.

Another issue with NCLB is the fact that it was never fully funded. It focused on MATH and Reading. That's it.
I think the intentions of NCLB were good--hold students and staff accountable for learning and teaching, but the focus was so narrow and so flawed.
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Old January 7th, 2018, 02:14 PM   #88
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One of the largest problems with no child left behind was it resulted in mainstreaming of special needs children. This created a huge amount of problems and increased costs on school districts.


What a load. You have no idea what you're talking about. Special needs children MUST be mainstreamed. That's not to say they shouldn't have special classes for their specific needs....because they should. The best solution is to mainstream and specialize.

Putting special needs children into classrooms with their peers who have NO disabilities is key in preparing all types of students for the big, wide world that awaits them--to have experience with and understand how to handle its difficulties. Inclusion is important for the disabled so they see the possibilities--the challenges ahead. Inclusion is invaluable for their peers because THEY too will have to work with all sorts of people.
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Old January 7th, 2018, 02:23 PM   #89
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What do you mean by this?
Children have a right to a public primary education until age 21. Many special needs children will never be able to read, do basic math. Tying there own shoes will be a major accomplishment. The physical problems that many of them have compound this. There use to be centers set up that dealt with this. These children were sent to special education centers that were set up to deal with all of these issue. When no child left behind was implemented, it gave rights to the parents to demand that their child not be treated differently. That may sound good, but what it did was force school districts to make arrangements for these special need children who quite frankly was not able to participate in the education process. I understand that many parents in this situation felt like there child was entitled to a normal high school experience. Unfortunately this was not in the best interest of everyone involved. This did nothing to help with getting the basic life skills a special needs child needed. Many of these kids are wheel chair bound, with physical limitations and mental capacity problems. Imagine a 14 year old,with a diaper, that can not speak. A child of that age with the development of a 1 year old. This is a sad situation. But school districts found themselves forced with having to accept special needs children and the costs of them directly into the mainstream school, and trying to help fund a co-op or regional special needs facility. The funding was not their to do both. So, the special needs centers in many cases were closed, and each district absorbed the costs of teachers aides and specialize programs for special needs children. This increased the over all operational cost because districts could not longer share the costs of the special education requirements. Therefore all suffered in the end
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Old January 7th, 2018, 02:24 PM   #90
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Standardized testing WAS (and still is) ONE of the problems with NCLB, Common Core and whatever comes next. In fact, most teachers AND administrators will tell you that standardized tests have had a devastating effect on public schools for a myriad of reasons, ranging from teaching to the test, tying test scores to teacher salaries, dealing with ESL students, stifling creativity, handcuffing teacher-led curriculum, not measuring student knowledge accurately, a one-size fits all mentality, top-down accountability mind set......in fact, the only people who benefit from these state tests are the companies that manufacture them.

Another issue with NCLB is the fact that it was never fully funded. It focused on MATH and Reading. That's it.
I think the intentions of NCLB were good--hold students and staff accountable for learning and teaching, but the focus was so narrow and so flawed.
I agree. Which is why I believe that education should be individualized. Everyone learns differently, and there are different kinds of intelligence.

https://blog.adioma.com/9-types-of-i...e-infographic/
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Last edited by Gordy; January 7th, 2018 at 02:27 PM.
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