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Old September 25th, 2016, 07:33 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by tristanrobin View Post
oh, yeah. the good old day.

when blacks smiled as they were called niggers and boy and coon.

and got lynched if they called a whilte 'cracker' or 'honky' - or smiled at a white girl.

yeah.

dem was sum good ol' days.
Truly you speak of a failure, and I really want to address that.

Not all Americans were educated and even when it was agreed all should be educated, that education was limited to 3 R's reading, writing and arithmetic. There was cultural education here, but basically, moral training was left to the church and this lead to tragedy, because the bible can be used to defend slavery and to oppose it. However, education for all was begun in the north and those reading lessons did include the reasoning of men being born equal and all having rights and deserving justice. The south caught on to this and began publishing its own textbooks advancing the cause of slavery.

I do not mean to let the north off the hook because I collect old textbooks and they are white, white, white, and we were pretty blind to that being a problem. It is hard to know what is wrong with advancing the White Anglo-Saxon Male agenda when one is a part of it. This includes the sexism that was very much a part of our culture and the 1950 idealism of women being full-time wives and mothers, the extension of their husband's and children's needs and wants, and segregating them just as much as the Black person was segregated from power and authority. Okay, that was the past and this is the present and I don't know how much is to be gained from beating a dead horse.

We might make more progress by working with the here and now, and understanding the importance of using public education to transmit a culture that protects liberty and justice for all and the danger of not doing so. However, I could also write a book about past failures, one room schools with 18-year old teachers left alone with rowdy students, and the poor education of those teachers, and the possibility that these schools had no books except a hornbook and maybe a bible. They sure did not have libraries and computers, and neither did we have the mass media we have today. We did not have the technology we have today and used our children as laborers. They really did not need education back then for anything other than citizenship, and the ability to read opened unlimited opportunity for them if they could access books, newspapers, and pamphlets. If you want to dig into the past failures, I can fill in the holes left by those who have not studied the subject. But from my point of view, it is like being disappointed in a child who is not doing calculus before learning the basics of math.

In many ways, we did not have the ability to do better. But this is no time to ignore the importance of past indoctrination that did bring us to believing sexism and racism are wrong and did lead us to believe liberty and justice for all are important. Without that education, we stand to loose both. Rule by law is not the end all. Rule by law can mean tyranny or despot. We have serious social, economic and political problems and education for democracy is the only chance we have doing better.
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Old September 25th, 2016, 07:37 PM   #12
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Well, freedom of speech will probably be turned into it is unlawful to offend. So you will probably get your way Tristan. Good job!
Offending people is immoral because it is destructive. Why do you seem to think that is a good thing?
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Old September 25th, 2016, 07:55 PM   #13
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Offending people is immoral because it is destructive. Why do you seem to think that is a good thing?
That is easy. Your feelings do not get decide what I can and can not say. What is offensive to you may not be to another. Unless you are forced against your will to listen or read something that you find offensive then you have no right at all to decide what I can or can not say based on your feelings. At all.
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Old September 25th, 2016, 08:10 PM   #14
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All Americans seem to be obsessed with the antiquated concept 'race', which - like the obsession with bang-bangs - seems to do terrible things to thinking. Both seem excellent examples of indoctrination or - as some of us might call it - brainwashing.

Do you write of sharing knowledge or of a social problem?

The word indoctrination comes out of a word for education, and all civilizations must transmit a culture or there is no civilization. Calling this brainwashing is not helpful. Instead, I would say we are destroying our civilization because we did stop transmitting our culture. This resulted in necessary cultural change, but too much of good thing stops being good. I would also say this the problem Germany had when Hitler took control. It had education for technology for military and industrial purpose but left moral training to the church.

The 1899 book "Talks to Teachers on Psychology: and to Students On Some Of Life's Ideals" by William James can help us know something of German education. The 1912 book by Charles Sarolea "The Anglo-Saxon Problem" and the 1943 book by Richar M. Brickner, M.D. "Is Germany Incurable?" can help us understand Germany's militarism and growing paranoia. Brickner explains paranoia as not only excessive fear, but that excessive fear is the result of an excessive need to be superior and in control. It seems the US has been experiencing this problem since replacing its liberal education with the German model of education for technology for military and industrial purpose.

As for obsessing on racism, we have a history that caused us a serious problem! Back in the days of slavery, a growing number of people became aware of that, but as we continue to burn fossil fuels despite our understanding of global warming, because of economic reasons, back then people defended slavery because of economic reasons. What our history books fail to tell us is how children were exploited by industrialist in the industrial north. All national schools in every country attempt to say what is right about the country, not what is wrong. I don't think it can be otherwise.

What is your superior consciousness that makes racism none existant and what are the circumstances for having this superior consciousness?
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Old September 25th, 2016, 08:13 PM   #15
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That is easy. Your feelings do not get decide what I can and can not say. What is offensive to you may not be to another. Unless you are forced against your will to listen or read something that you find offensive then you have no right at all to decide what I can or can not say based on your feelings. At all.
What I said about being offensive is not based on my feelings. I said being offensive is immoral because it is destructive. That makes my judgment a matter of reasoning, not emotion.
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Old September 25th, 2016, 09:02 PM   #16
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There are two ways to have social order, culture or authority over the people. A democracy and liberty demand we use culture and avoid authority over the people. Failure to do this leads to social unrest, a higher crime and welfare rate, and a much higher cost in the form of paying for law enforcers and prisons. That is beside the the ignorance that destroys both liberty and democracy.

What is indoctrination?



The word indoctrination has been twisted to mean preventing people from thinking for themselves. Nothing could be further from the true meaning of the word, which is to teach. In Athens and Rome, education was very much about thinking for one's self, and we adopted the Athenian/ Roman model. True that is a simplistic statement as education changed as social need changed, but our democracy comes out of the Enlightenment, and the Enlightenment came out of the philosophy developed in Athens and Rome. In Athens it was a new vision of the gods being ruled by reason, and the story goes, Athena, taught men to govern themselves as the gods do. Rhetoric and logic are extremely important to this education and arguing our case in every aspect our lives from politics to agreeing on the best way to educate our children.

Perhaps the word indoctrination became such a bad word because indoctrination is the number one goal of religion, and Christianity most certainly is not education for individual reasoning. Monotheism has created a very serious problem in our world, and we know it is behind most of wars, and nationalism that leads to war. Religion is good for war and war is good for religion. Ignorance and war are the result of religious indoctrination.

However, know originally free public education in the US was secular and about indoctrinating children to be good citizens, independent thinkers with good moral judgment based on reason, capable of making the world a better place. I will be arguing this secular education with cultural mythology is necessary indoctrination of our young. It is what we is required to have liberty, justice, and a healthy democracy.
This harkens back to the nurture or nature argument. I was nurtured to dislike black people but when I became an adult, nature took over making me accept all people who do right.
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Old September 26th, 2016, 07:54 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Athena View Post
Do you write of sharing knowledge or of a social problem?

The word indoctrination comes out of a word for education, and all civilizations must transmit a culture or there is no civilization. Calling this brainwashing is not helpful. Instead, I would say we are destroying our civilization because we did stop transmitting our culture. This resulted in necessary cultural change, but too much of good thing stops being good. I would also say this the problem Germany had when Hitler took control. It had education for technology for military and industrial purpose but left moral training to the church.

The 1899 book "Talks to Teachers on Psychology: and to Students On Some Of Life's Ideals" by William James can help us know something of German education. The 1912 book by Charles Sarolea "The Anglo-Saxon Problem" and the 1943 book by Richar M. Brickner, M.D. "Is Germany Incurable?" can help us understand Germany's militarism and growing paranoia. Brickner explains paranoia as not only excessive fear, but that excessive fear is the result of an excessive need to be superior and in control. It seems the US has been experiencing this problem since replacing its liberal education with the German model of education for technology for military and industrial purpose.

As for obsessing on racism, we have a history that caused us a serious problem! Back in the days of slavery, a growing number of people became aware of that, but as we continue to burn fossil fuels despite our understanding of global warming, because of economic reasons, back then people defended slavery because of economic reasons. What our history books fail to tell us is how children were exploited by industrialist in the industrial north. All national schools in every country attempt to say what is right about the country, not what is wrong. I don't think it can be otherwise.

What is your superior consciousness that makes racism none existant and what are the circumstances for having this superior consciousness?
Murdering people with guns and believing in drivel is not part of culture, since it denies reality totally, as you know. 'Superior consciousness' consists of not being brainwashed and being able to read.
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Old September 26th, 2016, 08:40 AM   #18
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Murdering people with guns and believing in drivel is not part of culture, since it denies reality totally, as you know. 'Superior consciousness' consists of not being brainwashed and being able to read.
If prejudice were against our nature, there would be none. Biologically we are designed to live in small groups as the apes do. It is very strong in our nature to discriminate between who is one of us and who is not. Our ability to violate this nature and live in large cities is amazing. This was achieved with religion and later with nationalism and ideas of our ethnic heritage.

All that drivel is exactly what culture is about, and why education is so important.

The original purpose of free public education in the US was to transition youth into adulthood and the following comes from a textbook. Schools did not have the same books and the education of the South was different from the education in the north and this is one reason for the Civil War. Much later a committee defined democracy for a textbook series when the US was mobilizing for war.

From grade school textbooks, the "Democracy Series" 1940, 1944,1945.
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"Democracy is a way of life and social organization which above all others is sensitive to the dignity and worth of the individual human personality, affirming the fundamental moral and political equality of men and recognizing no barriers of race, religion, or circumstance." (General Report of the Seminar on "What Is Democracy?" Congress on Education for Democracy, August, 1939.

More specifically the authors of the Democracy Series use the following characteristics to describe the ideals and procedures of democracy.
1. Respect for the dignity and worth of the individual human personality.
2. Open opportunity for the individual.
3. Economic and social security.
4. The search for truth.
5. Free discussion; freedom of speech; freedom of the press.
6. Universal education.
7. The rule of the majority; the rights of the minority; the honest ballot.
8. Justice for the common man; trial by jury; arbitration of disputes; orderly legal processes; freedom from search and seizure, right to petition.
9. Freedom of religion.
10. Respect for the rights of private property.
11. The practice of the fundamental social virtues.
12. The responsibility of the individual to participate in the duties of democracy.
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Old September 26th, 2016, 09:28 AM   #19
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Democracy is a complex concept and I am not sure we share the same understanding of it? What gave our democracy order was family order and education in a set of American values, and I think that is extremely important. Without our the set of values, and education for critical thinking and good moral judgment, we can not have liberty and justice. Rule authority over the people destroys both and is a tyranny or despot. I don't think rule by law is a good thing without liberty and justice and the education essential to both.

All civilizations rise and fall, and in-between the rise and fall they change. The Hellenism of Athens was perhaps strongest when Athens was weakening and it was Alexander of Macedonia spreading Hellenism and increasing the mix of other cultures into it. Even after Rome took control of Athens, Athens remained the place to get an education and prepare for being a statesman. Unfortunately, Rome remained rather primitive compared to Athens, and although it developed a legal system that incorporated the laws of various city/states, the Romans remained rather intolerant people, practical and materialistic, but lacking in culture and intellectual achievement, and lacking in economic understanding. That said, the legal system of Rome was its gift to the world, as the intellectual development of Athens was its gift to the world, and the US made the most of these gifts.



There is good reason to think through Madison and the Federalist versus Jefferson, but this thread is not for that purpose. This thread is the importance of indoctrination through education to our liberty and justice and I hope we can stay focused on that, as our liberty and justice is a social and cultural matter, not just a political concern. Government is only one aspect of democracy. While democracy is a way of life covering all aspects of our lives. Back to your first argument, without a learned culture, rule by law can be a tyranny or despot, and that is what we want to avoid.



Ah, but a mob capable of the best reasoning and that is what democracy is about. There is no way a dictator, nor the elite, can govern better than the people governing themselves. To be subject to authority other than one's own authority is to be a slave, not a free man. However, to be a man without culture is a failure to mature and developed intellectual ability and that also is to be a slave. That is to be a slave of our animal instincts, emotions, and fickle and very limited minds, and this not desirable either.

Your reply was perfect for advancing my point. Thank you.
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Democracy is a complex concept and I am not sure we share the same understanding of it? What gave our democracy order was family order and education in a set of American values, and I think that is extremely important. Without our the set of values, and education for critical thinking and good moral judgment, we can not have liberty and justice. Rule authority over the people destroys both and is a tyranny or despot. I don't think rule by law is a good thing without liberty and justice and the education essential to both.
Democracy is not a complex concept. It is a very simple concept of mob rule and its failings were studied intently by the founders and explicitly avoided in our form of government. We do not have a democracy. The Constitution and the Bill of Rights are two very anti-democratic documents. A democracy would not permit a separation of powers, would not have a Senate to check the House, would not have executive veto power, and would not have a Supreme Court to check federal legislation. The most basic concept of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights prevents “rule authority” over the people. The rule of law prevents this if adhered. The rule of law is what prevents an infringement on liberty as the liberty in the Bill of Rights is a negative liberty, which prevents any type of government intervention.
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All civilizations rise and fall, and in-between the rise and fall they change. The Hellenism of Athens was perhaps strongest when Athens was weakening and it was Alexander of Macedonia spreading Hellenism and increasing the mix of other cultures into it. Even after Rome took control of Athens, Athens remained the place to get an education and prepare for being a statesman. Unfortunately, Rome remained rather primitive compared to Athens, and although it developed a legal system that incorporated the laws of various city/states, the Romans remained rather intolerant people, practical and materialistic, but lacking in culture and intellectual achievement, and lacking in economic understanding. That said, the legal system of Rome was its gift to the world, as the intellectual development of Athens was its gift to the world, and the US made the most of these gifts.
I addressed nations, empires, and countries, not civilizations. Nations, empires, and countries fall because of discernable reasons. Those discernable reasons were studied by the founders. What was studied were the flaws of the Constitution of the Roman Republic, what caused the Roman Republic to transform into the Roman Empire and why that caused the fall of the Roman Empire, Cardinal de Retz, the Achean confederacy the Amphictyonic confederacy of 16th century Greece, the Helvitic confederacy of 14th to 15th century Switzerland, the Belgic confederacy of the 16th century, the Germanic confederacy, and the rise and fall of the Greek empire.

The Greek empire fell because of the same reason that this country is on the road to failure. The empire was never on solid ground and there was always divineness and resistance. After Alexander’s death, he was no longer around to keep the once sovereign countries from dividing and warring with each other. The Roman’s only conquered Greece because of this as Greece united was much more powerful than Rome. This is what gave us the concept of federalism and the sovereign states kept all the sovereignty they had prior to the ratification of the Constitution other than a few enumerated powers they ceded. The erosion of federalism is the same road that caused the fall of Greek Empire.

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There is good reason to think through Madison and the Federalist versus Jefferson, but this thread is not for that purpose. This thread is the importance of indoctrination through education to our liberty and justice and I hope we can stay focused on that, as our liberty and justice is a social and cultural matter, not just a political concern. Government is only one aspect of democracy. While democracy is a way of life covering all aspects of our lives. Back to your first argument, without a learned culture, rule by law can be a tyranny or despot, and that is what we want to avoid.
Our liberty is a matter of non-governmental involvement. That is what the negative liberty is in our founding documents. The rule of law is what prevents tyranny or despot. Following the rule of law is what we want to embrace. There is no point in having a written constitution if the rule of law is not followed. The liberals on this site love basing Putin, but they embrace his style of governing and have no idea that they do. Russia has a very long and detailed constitution that protects a plethora of rights. The problem is that Putin ignores the rule of law and the constitution. The federal government’s and Obama’s ignoring the constitution and the rule of law if it advances a liberal idea is applauded by the left, but that is exactly what Putin had done.

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Ah, but a mob capable of the best reasoning and that is what democracy is about. There is no way a dictator, nor the elite, can govern better than the people governing themselves. To be subject to authority other than one's own authority is to be a slave, not a free man. However, to be a man without culture is a failure to mature and developed intellectual ability and that also is to be a slave. That is to be a slave of our animal instincts, emotions, and fickle and very limited minds, and this not desirable either.
Mob rule is why we not have a democracy. The Constitution and the Bill of Right prevents mob rule. There are no protected rights under a democracy. The structure of our government makes the government subject to authority, not the other way around.
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Old September 26th, 2016, 09:28 AM   #20
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Conservatives and freedom of speech is an oxymoron.
yet it is the progressives who desire "hate speech" laws.

go figure.

statists gonna state.

liberal, republican, progressive, conservative.

they have all been busy taking liberties and freedoms from the citizens. the sheeple from one camp look the other way when it fits their narrative. to busy fighting amongst each other to see that you are just pawns and your unable to see the end game.
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