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Old September 26th, 2016, 01:14 PM   #31
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Jimmyb,

I am sorry, that was an emotional reaction and no good come out that. It was like I had just spent hours painting a picture and walked out of the room, then returned to find yuk thrown all over it. What happened was totally disrespectful of me and everyone else. To blame Daws for the problem here is a failure to understand the problem. You might notice I have been a member here for a long time, but I participate very little. Such bad behavior pulls me down. I need to be with people who do better, so I am lifted up and come closer to being the person I want to be.

I think the person who started this forum had high hopes for what it would become but is mistaken to believe that better forum is possible without strong leadership. And this is how just about everyone today misunderstands democracy and fails to realize his/her responsibility for that democracy. A democracy can not survive without strong leadership, and a democracy is not one person, or a group of elite, doing all the important work for the subjects of their authority. A democracy is as good as all of us working together, or as bad as our failure to do so.

There really needs to be an agreement to stop trashing each other's threads and stop engaging with those who do and then patting each other on the back for chasing away the disliked kid. It is a social activity but it is not what intelligent people come here hoping to find, and it will attract the trolls you don't want.
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Last edited by Athena; September 26th, 2016 at 01:21 PM.
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Old September 26th, 2016, 04:36 PM   #32
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Jimmyb,

I am sorry, that was an emotional reaction and no good come out that. It was like I had just spent hours painting a picture and walked out of the room, then returned to find yuk thrown all over it. What happened was totally disrespectful of me and everyone else. To blame Daws for the problem here is a failure to understand the problem. You might notice I have been a member here for a long time, but I participate very little. Such bad behavior pulls me down. I need to be with people who do better, so I am lifted up and come closer to being the person I want to be.

I think the person who started this forum had high hopes for what it would become but is mistaken to believe that better forum is possible without strong leadership. And this is how just about everyone today misunderstands democracy and fails to realize his/her responsibility for that democracy. A democracy can not survive without strong leadership, and a democracy is not one person, or a group of elite, doing all the important work for the subjects of their authority. A democracy is as good as all of us working together, or as bad as our failure to do so.

There really needs to be an agreement to stop trashing each other's threads and stop engaging with those who do and then patting each other on the back for chasing away the disliked kid. It is a social activity but it is not what intelligent people come here hoping to find, and it will attract the trolls you don't want.

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Old September 27th, 2016, 09:59 AM   #33
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I'm afraid you are getting into 'human nature' (= original sin, actually). I think it is a very long time since we lived in small groups, and 'races' resemble hunter-gatherer families in no way, surely, so why not argue that is our nature to swing in trees? I think that what goes on in our heads reflects the interests of those who rule our society, the very rich, and that we can't alter that by act of will, though I approve highly of what you are arguing for. 'Religion' in the US seems largely under the control of the nastiest elements, alas, and to be totally divorced from what is written clearly enough in the New Testament, while theoretically democratic politics is producing trumps. It is different in some ways over here, but not in many. Brainwashing is much, much more real than 'culture', as it has to be in the last few centuries of humanity. Happy days!
Sorry iolo, I got too upset to deal with serious posters.

Absolutely I am getting into human nature!

I agree it has been a long time since we lived in small groups. Civilization means a large group of people made possible by civilizing forces. To civilize someone means to make that person as us.

Religion made larger groups of people possible because it brought into play civilizing forces, that created culture. Humans are social animals sensitive to social pressures. Human behavior is controlled by culture. Religion is indoctrination that unites large numbers of people, it also excludes large numbers of people and leads to war. Religion, especially Christianity, stands against reasoning and without education for democracy it becomes the enemy of democracy.

This forum is titled Defending the Truth, and in a democracy, this is done through powers of reason, not religious doctrine. The democratic way of life is based on a different formula for knowing truth. It is not reading a bible written long ago, but observing nature and arguing what is the cause and effect of all things. What do we want and how do we achieve that? This understanding of reasoning began in Athens, and it has been developed through philosophy, math, and science since then. With Christianity fighting against this formula for reasoning every step of the way.

Germany had education for technology for military and industrial purpose and left moral training to the church. Since the beginning of civilization, slaves learned technology. A liberal education is for freemen and is about learning how to think independently and to be a leader. The US adopted the German model of education for technology in a matter of degrees. When it mobilized for WWI it added vocational training but retained liberal education. The air warfare and atomic bomb of the second WWII, radically change our education, ending the liberal education at the grade school level, and totally focusing on education for technology. There are strong social, economic and political ramifications to this change. We are on the path Germany followed and the democracy we were is becoming a forgotten democracy.

Brainwashing requires cleansing the brain of something. Those not educated for independent thinking have no defense against brainwashing, except maybe a firm conviction in their holy book. However, those educated for independent thinking are hard to brainwash, because they know how to think for themselves. This is directly related to why I opened this thread.
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Old September 28th, 2016, 04:12 AM   #34
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Sorry iolo, I got too upset to deal with serious posters.

Absolutely I am getting into human nature!

I agree it has been a long time since we lived in small groups. Civilization means a large group of people made possible by civilizing forces. To civilize someone means to make that person as us.

Religion made larger groups of people possible because it brought into play civilizing forces, that created culture. Humans are social animals sensitive to social pressures. Human behavior is controlled by culture. Religion is indoctrination that unites large numbers of people, it also excludes large numbers of people and leads to war. Religion, especially Christianity, stands against reasoning and without education for democracy it becomes the enemy of democracy.

This forum is titled Defending the Truth, and in a democracy, this is done through powers of reason, not religious doctrine. The democratic way of life is based on a different formula for knowing truth. It is not reading a bible written long ago, but observing nature and arguing what is the cause and effect of all things. What do we want and how do we achieve that? This understanding of reasoning began in Athens, and it has been developed through philosophy, math, and science since then. With Christianity fighting against this formula for reasoning every step of the way.

Germany had education for technology for military and industrial purpose and left moral training to the church. Since the beginning of civilization, slaves learned technology. A liberal education is for freemen and is about learning how to think independently and to be a leader. The US adopted the German model of education for technology in a matter of degrees. When it mobilized for WWI it added vocational training but retained liberal education. The air warfare and atomic bomb of the second WWII, radically change our education, ending the liberal education at the grade school level, and totally focusing on education for technology. There are strong social, economic and political ramifications to this change. We are on the path Germany followed and the democracy we were is becoming a forgotten democracy.

Brainwashing requires cleansing the brain of something. Those not educated for independent thinking have no defense against brainwashing, except maybe a firm conviction in their holy book. However, those educated for independent thinking are hard to brainwash, because they know how to think for themselves. This is directly related to why I opened this thread.
Understood. What I would argue is that we accept whatever large groups we find ourselves in, and the values of its masters. The difficulty of living under capitalism is that there is a huge gap between the inherited morality - basically Christian in a loose sort of way in the West - and the basic drives of the system itself which totally contradict it (Greed as central, and a huge chorus behind whatever the very rich want to tell us, which momentarily always convinces the mugs, especially the necessary 'racial' and other footle which justifies dividing workers to keep wages down. The rich (ultimately anyway) control the educational system and everything else, and are not about to let us teach any form of decency (sex sells products, wars gain markets, torture silences opposition and so on), and they certainly totally control all the mass religious organisations, which they have turned into Mammon-plus-guilt. In these circumstances the inherited culture has to be taught, and their huge Noise-Machine prevents the necessary concentration to take it in. It is my own view that the system will destroy the human world long before we can do much about it, but I tend to feel that we have a sort of moral duty to keep fighting to the end.
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Old September 28th, 2016, 07:44 AM   #35
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I highly recommend staying on topic. Apology to Athena for letting this thread be commandeered by the usual suspects, including one who trolls incessantly while complaining about others' trolling.

The topic of this thread is a good one. I highly recommend posters staying on topic.
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Old September 29th, 2016, 05:51 AM   #36
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I will start posting indoctrination from old text so everyone can see what I am talking about. When we passed the 1958 National Defense Education Act, we stopped transmitting our culture and destroyed our national heroes. Some think that is a good thing and I want to argue why it was not a good thing.

This is the Publisher's Froward in a textbook titled "America's Own Story" published in 1954. This would be after the second world war and before the USSR sent Sputnik around the world, proving it not only had an atomic bomb but the technology to deliver it anyway it wanted.

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The "Living America Series" os dedicated to the preservation of the American way of life.

There are those who seek to destroy this way of life. We who believe in it must protect it. One of our greatest protections is a sound understanding of what America really means.

Our children must learn early in life what the American way is- and how it came to be. They must learn not to take for granted the rights of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." They must understand, and value, our great heritage if they are to preserve it.

The "Living America Series" of social studies texts aims at a fuller appreciation of, and participation in, a living America. It is not only for "citizens- to- be," but for "citizens- who- are"- the boys and girls who attend American schools.
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Old September 29th, 2016, 06:44 AM   #37
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I will start posting indoctrination from old text so everyone can see what I am talking about. When we passed the 1958 National Defense Education Act, we stopped transmitting our culture and destroyed our national heroes. Some think that is a good thing and I want to argue why it was not a good thing.

This is the Publisher's Froward in a textbook titled "America's Own Story" published in 1954. This would be after the second world war and before the USSR sent Sputnik around the world, proving it not only had an atomic bomb but the technology to deliver it anyway it wanted.
That textbook was still floating around in the 70's.
It's a classic of indoctrination.
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Old September 29th, 2016, 04:39 PM   #38
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The state has replaced religion and is worshipped more feverishly than any gods of times passed.


First, I fail to see anything wrong with any of these scenarios.

Second, no one's forcing anyone to go to these particular schools or believe these things.

And third, the picture is, I guess, stating that the education system turns us into mindless zombies for the government to manipulate just like religions do for their own cause, blah, blah, blah. If that were the case then this stupid comic wouldn't exist because buddy wouldn't have had the freedom to think it up let alone post it publicly.
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Old September 29th, 2016, 04:58 PM   #39
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There are two ways to have social order, culture or authority over the people. A democracy and liberty demand we use culture and avoid authority over the people. Failure to do this leads to social unrest, a higher crime and welfare rate, and a much higher cost in the form of paying for law enforcers and prisons. That is beside the the ignorance that destroys both liberty and democracy.

What is indoctrination?



The word indoctrination has been twisted to mean preventing people from thinking for themselves. Nothing could be further from the true meaning of the word, which is to teach. In Athens and Rome, education was very much about thinking for one's self, and we adopted the Athenian/ Roman model. True that is a simplistic statement as education changed as social need changed, but our democracy comes out of the Enlightenment, and the Enlightenment came out of the philosophy developed in Athens and Rome. In Athens it was a new vision of the gods being ruled by reason, and the story goes, Athena, taught men to govern themselves as the gods do. Rhetoric and logic are extremely important to this education and arguing our case in every aspect our lives from politics to agreeing on the best way to educate our children.

Perhaps the word indoctrination became such a bad word because indoctrination is the number one goal of religion, and Christianity most certainly is not education for individual reasoning. Monotheism has created a very serious problem in our world, and we know it is behind most of wars, and nationalism that leads to war. Religion is good for war and war is good for religion. Ignorance and war are the result of religious indoctrination.

However, know originally free public education in the US was secular and about indoctrinating children to be good citizens, independent thinkers with good moral judgment based on reason, capable of making the world a better place. I will be arguing this secular education with cultural mythology is necessary indoctrination of our young. It is what we is required to have liberty, justice, and a healthy democracy.
You state that the goal of Christianity and religion in general is to indoctrinate people, but in the new sense of the term, not the old one. You state that Christianity is not good for individual reasoning.

You just state these without any evidence or reasoning yourself. How ironic.

In fact, I would argue that throughout history monotheism has done nothing but encourage freethinking. Some of the most complex thinking in human history, going far beyond those of Atheists and Polytheists, has not only been the result of the thinking of monotheists, but sponsored by the organizations that promote this line of theology. Monotheism has a mysterious air to it unlike any other type of theology, given that the nature of their theological beings and states of being are never explicitly stated in scripture. Therefore, for millennia and even today this is debated over. We have monotheists to thank for many of the greatest philosophical, scientific and artistic achievements in human history.

Furthermore, how can you know the goal of religion when being separated from it? You are assuming. You cannot escape that. I believe that of course many people with religious power throughout history cared little for salvation or actually educating people, but for the most part, religious people and their religious organizations truly believed they were doing what was morally correct. Just look at the Reformation. We can go back and forth forever arguing about the ethics and historiography of this event, but one thing that cannot be denied is that this was spawned out of so many people and church officials being sick of the rampant corruption of the Renaissance Catholic Church. Church officials, politicians, military commanders and nobility, all people that if they simply cared about themselves would have just left things as they were. Instead though, they risked their lives and the destruction of the long held unity of religion in Western Europe for what they believed was right.

War is mostly about three things: power, pride and resources. Sure, one may use other things to convince followers to campaign with them, but ultimately, those who instigate illegal and evil wars are doing for one or more of the above reasons. Few cases in history I think go against this, but I will say that there is one that comes to mind: the English Civil War, which was clearly caused by religious disputes between the Anglicans and Puritans, which then became political.

As a soldier, I understand the evil of war, but I am willing to dive head long into it for my country and the well being of those around the world. Though I've yet to go to war, I know a lot of people who have, and these are their beliefs - many of them are also distinguished professors so that helps
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Old September 30th, 2016, 01:55 AM   #40
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First, I fail to see anything wrong with any of these scenarios.

Second, no one's forcing anyone to go to these particular schools or believe these things.

And third, the picture is, I guess, stating that the education system turns us into mindless zombies for the government to manipulate just like religions do for their own cause, blah, blah, blah. If that were the case then this stupid comic wouldn't exist because buddy wouldn't have had the freedom to think it up let alone post it publicly.
it is the law that children go to school, so tell me again how no one is being forced?

are you trying to say that all people who have been indoctrinated loose all of their ability for free thought? though that may have been the case w/ you i can guarantee that it is not the same for everyone. also i think that you failed to understand the point of the post, that does not surprise me as you have been completely indoctrinated yourself.
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