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Old September 24th, 2016, 12:52 PM   #1
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indoctrination, education and culture

There are two ways to have social order, culture or authority over the people. A democracy and liberty demand we use culture and avoid authority over the people. Failure to do this leads to social unrest, a higher crime and welfare rate, and a much higher cost in the form of paying for law enforcers and prisons. That is beside the the ignorance that destroys both liberty and democracy.

What is indoctrination?

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indoctrination. ... Indoctrination often refers to religious ideas, when you're talking about a religious environment that doesn't let you question or criticize those beliefs. The Latin word for "teach," doctrina is the root of indoctrinate, and originally that's just what it meant.
indoctrination - Dictionary Definition : Vocabulary.com
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/indoctrination
The word indoctrination has been twisted to mean preventing people from thinking for themselves. Nothing could be further from the true meaning of the word, which is to teach. In Athens and Rome, education was very much about thinking for one's self, and we adopted the Athenian/ Roman model. True that is a simplistic statement as education changed as social need changed, but our democracy comes out of the Enlightenment, and the Enlightenment came out of the philosophy developed in Athens and Rome. In Athens it was a new vision of the gods being ruled by reason, and the story goes, Athena, taught men to govern themselves as the gods do. Rhetoric and logic are extremely important to this education and arguing our case in every aspect our lives from politics to agreeing on the best way to educate our children.

Perhaps the word indoctrination became such a bad word because indoctrination is the number one goal of religion, and Christianity most certainly is not education for individual reasoning. Monotheism has created a very serious problem in our world, and we know it is behind most of wars, and nationalism that leads to war. Religion is good for war and war is good for religion. Ignorance and war are the result of religious indoctrination.

However, know originally free public education in the US was secular and about indoctrinating children to be good citizens, independent thinkers with good moral judgment based on reason, capable of making the world a better place. I will be arguing this secular education with cultural mythology is necessary indoctrination of our young. It is what we is required to have liberty, justice, and a healthy democracy.
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Old September 24th, 2016, 01:23 PM   #2
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I liked it better when students were indoctrinated to value freedom of speech.
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Old September 24th, 2016, 05:40 PM   #3
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The state has replaced religion and is worshipped more feverishly than any gods of times passed.


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Old September 24th, 2016, 06:18 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Athena View Post
There are two ways to have social order, culture or authority over the people. A democracy and liberty demand we use culture and avoid authority over the people. Failure to do this leads to social unrest, a higher crime and welfare rate, and a much higher cost in the form of paying for law enforcers and prisons. That is beside the the ignorance that destroys both liberty and democracy.

What is indoctrination?



The word indoctrination has been twisted to mean preventing people from thinking for themselves. Nothing could be further from the true meaning of the word, which is to teach. In Athens and Rome, education was very much about thinking for one's self, and we adopted the Athenian/ Roman model. True that is a simplistic statement as education changed as social need changed, but our democracy comes out of the Enlightenment, and the Enlightenment came out of the philosophy developed in Athens and Rome. In Athens it was a new vision of the gods being ruled by reason, and the story goes, Athena, taught men to govern themselves as the gods do. Rhetoric and logic are extremely important to this education and arguing our case in every aspect our lives from politics to agreeing on the best way to educate our children.

Perhaps the word indoctrination became such a bad word because indoctrination is the number one goal of religion, and Christianity most certainly is not education for individual reasoning. Monotheism has created a very serious problem in our world, and we know it is behind most of wars, and nationalism that leads to war. Religion is good for war and war is good for religion. Ignorance and war are the result of religious indoctrination.

However, know originally free public education in the US was secular and about indoctrinating children to be good citizens, independent thinkers with good moral judgment based on reason, capable of making the world a better place. I will be arguing this secular education with cultural mythology is necessary indoctrination of our young. It is what we is required to have liberty, justice, and a healthy democracy.
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There are two ways to have social order, culture or authority over the people. A democracy and liberty demand we use culture and avoid authority over the people. Failure to do this leads to social unrest, a higher crime and welfare rate, and a much higher cost in the form of paying for law enforcers and prisons. That is beside the the ignorance that destroys both liberty and democracy.
That is not the cause of social order. Democracy is a cancer to social order. What keeps social order is the rule of law. Democracy is the opposite of the rule of law.

Quote:
The word indoctrination has been twisted to mean preventing people from thinking for themselves. Nothing could be further from the true meaning of the word, which is to teach. In Athens and Rome, education was very much about thinking for one's self, and we adopted the Athenian/ Roman model. True that is a simplistic statement as education changed as social need changed, but our democracy comes out of the Enlightenment, and the Enlightenment came out of the philosophy developed in Athens and Rome. In Athens it was a new vision of the gods being ruled by reason, and the story goes, Athena, taught men to govern themselves as the gods do.
Athens collapsed and so did Rome. We adopted the opposite of Athens and Rome. The Roman Republic became the Roman Empire and that was the end of Rome. What caused the Roman Republic to become the Roman Empire were the same policies that drive the Democratic Party.

Madison, et al. used the failings of Athens and Rome to structure our government to avoid the same fate. That structure is being eroded each day. If you want to know what the founders thought of the Athenian Democracy, and democracy in general, Madisonísí summation in Federalist No. 55 summed it up nicely:
In all very numerous assemblies, of whatever character composed, passion never fails to wrest the sceptre from reason. Had every Athenian citizen been a Socrates, every Athenian assembly would still have been a mob.
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Old September 24th, 2016, 07:40 PM   #5
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oh, yeah. the good old day.

when blacks smiled as they were called niggers and boy and coon.

and got lynched if they called a whilte 'cracker' or 'honky' - or smiled at a white girl.

yeah.

dem was sum good ol' days.
Well, freedom of speech will probably be turned into it is unlawful to offend. So you will probably get your way Tristan. Good job!
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Old September 25th, 2016, 05:42 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by tristanrobin View Post
oh, yeah. the good old day.

when blacks smiled as they were called niggers and boy and coon.

and got lynched if they called a whilte 'cracker' or 'honky' - or smiled at a white girl.

yeah.

dem was sum good ol' days.
Valuing freedom of speech is what gave MLK and others the means to address racial abuses.

Equating my respect for freedom of speech with racism is offensive, irrelevant , and stupid.
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Old September 25th, 2016, 05:47 AM   #7
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All Americans seem to be obsessed with the antiquated concept 'race', which - like the obsession with bang-bangs - seems to do terrible things to thinking. Both seem excellent examples of indoctrination or - as some of us might call it - brainwashing.
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Old September 25th, 2016, 05:54 AM   #8
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Why is a thread about indoctrination going to racism before the end of the 1st page?
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Old September 25th, 2016, 06:07 AM   #9
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Why is a thread about indoctrination going to racism before the end of the 1st page?
It's the major example over there, surely? Even decent Americans seem to believe in 'race', though there is no evidence for it. Why?
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Old September 25th, 2016, 05:31 PM   #10
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[QUOTE=Jimmyb;990378]

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That is not the cause of social order. Democracy is a cancer to social order. What keeps social order is the rule of law. Democracy is the opposite of the rule of law.
Democracy is a complex concept and I am not sure we share the same understanding of it? What gave our democracy order was family order and education in a set of American values, and I think that is extremely important. Without our the set of values, and education for critical thinking and good moral judgment, we can not have liberty and justice. Rule authority over the people destroys both and is a tyranny or despot. I don't think rule by law is a good thing without liberty and justice and the education essential to both.


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Athens collapsed and so did Rome. We adopted the opposite of Athens and Rome. The Roman Republic became the Roman Empire and that was the end of Rome. What caused the Roman Republic to become the Roman Empire were the same policies that drive the Democratic Party.
All civilizations rise and fall, and in-between the rise and fall they change. The Hellenism of Athens was perhaps strongest when Athens was weakening and it was Alexander of Macedonia spreading Hellenism and increasing the mix of other cultures into it. Even after Rome took control of Athens, Athens remained the place to get an education and prepare for being a statesman. Unfortunately, Rome remained rather primitive compared to Athens, and although it developed a legal system that incorporated the laws of various city/states, the Romans remained rather intolerant people, practical and materialistic, but lacking in culture and intellectual achievement, and lacking in economic understanding. That said, the legal system of Rome was its gift to the world, as the intellectual development of Athens was its gift to the world, and the US made the most of these gifts.

Quote:
Madison, et al. used the failings of Athens and Rome to structure our government to avoid the same fate. That structure is being eroded each day. If you want to know what the founders thought of the Athenian Democracy, and democracy in general, Madisonísí summation in Federalist No. 55 summed it up nicely:
There is good reason to think through Madison and the Federalist versus Jefferson, but this thread is not for that purpose. This thread is the importance of indoctrination through education to our liberty and justice and I hope we can stay focused on that, as our liberty and justice is a social and cultural matter, not just a political concern. Government is only one aspect of democracy. While democracy is a way of life covering all aspects of our lives. Back to your first argument, without a learned culture, rule by law can be a tyranny or despot, and that is what we want to avoid.

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Had every Athenian citizen been a Socrates, every Athenian assembly would still have been a mob.
Ah, but a mob capable of the best reasoning and that is what democracy is about. There is no way a dictator, nor the elite, can govern better than the people governing themselves. To be subject to authority other than one's own authority is to be a slave, not a free man. However, to be a man without culture is a failure to mature and developed intellectual ability and that also is to be a slave. That is to be a slave of our animal instincts, emotions, and fickle and very limited minds, and this not desirable either.

Your reply was perfect for advancing my point. Thank you.
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