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Old May 3rd, 2017, 09:41 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Twisted Sister View Post
I beg to differ because I have relatives who live in the big city and their property taxs are much lower compared to mine and their houses are newer. The Big City is trying to force farmers out of Brown Township by offering lower property taxes but thanks to the Brown Township Trustees, that ain't gonna happen. No stores, apartments, mobile homes or churches allowed in Brown Township. If you want to build a house in Brown Township it has to be on 5 acres if you find someone willing to sell you five acres and approved by the Brown Township Trustees. A five acre undeveloped lot in Brown Township costs a little under 200k. I had to live in the Big City for most of my working life and it left a bad taste in my mouth.
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Hennepin County. Hennepin County is home to the city of Minneapolis and contains over 20% of the population of Minnesota. Tax rates in Hennepin County are among the highest in the state and somewhat higher than the national average. The average effective tax rate in Hennepin County is 1.31%, second highest in Minnesota ...


https://smartasset.com/taxes/minneso...tax-calculator
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Old May 3rd, 2017, 09:49 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Twisted Sister View Post
Property Tax pays for public schools and it is a high and dirty tax. My property tax is bookoo bucks and have no children in school. I pay it because there is no other option unless I sell out and move to the big city which is not an option.
Assuming you went to public schools, people who had no children in school or maybe no children paid for your schooling.

It works out in the long-term.
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Old May 3rd, 2017, 09:55 PM   #23
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If that's the way they feel they have the choice to send them elsewhere.
They don't have a right to taxpayer money to fund that choice...

Why not? If the goal is to educate children why should it matter to someone who is not involved in the child's life where they are educated?

Now if the goal is indoctrination then you are right on point


In a similar manner, should I be able to deduct my lack of children from my taxes and stop paying for other people's kids?
Why should they be able to deduct their choice but I can't deduct mine?


If you are not sending them through the public school system, why not? If you can show that you have spent that much money in a year on their education.


The taxes for schools are something that the taxpayers get to provide input into.
If somebody chooses not to partake in that, why do they get to somehow remove funds from the system?


If the system is failing why reward it with even more money. Open it up to fair competition.


Let's take your ill-gotten "hospital" idea.
Suppose the hospital were funded by the government, but I decided not to go there.
Should I get a refund because I choose to abstain?

refund? No. I don't think that you should be forced to pay in in the first place.

.

Last edited by Sabcat; May 4th, 2017 at 12:17 AM.
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Old May 3rd, 2017, 09:57 PM   #24
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People from Wisconsin make fun of people from Minnesota and vice versa. I did a punch out job for Northwest Airlines in the Twin City but the Twin City is a super big city. I did a project in small city in Wisconsin and at the local bar met a man who was a prison guard sergeant not too far away who was nice but had issues and wanted me to be a prison guard, with all respect I said no thank you.
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Old May 3rd, 2017, 10:02 PM   #25
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People from Wisconsin make fun of people from Minnesota and vice versa. I did a punch out job for Northwest Airlines in the Twin City but the Twin City is a super big city. I did a project in small city in Wisconsin and at the local bar met a man who was a prison guard sergeant not too far away who was nice but had issues and wanted me to be a prison guard, with all respect I said no thank you.
We have associats who live across the boarder in WI. One has a big ass house on the river w/ a nice river boat. That costs him less than a average rambler in a decent part of the twin cities and all of his taxes are less. I personally couldn't handle that much rush hour traffic.
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Old May 3rd, 2017, 10:27 PM   #26
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We have associats who live across the boarder in WI. One has a big ass house on the river w/ a nice river boat. That costs him less than a average rambler in a decent part of the twin cities and all of his taxes are less. I personally couldn't handle that much rush hour traffic.
I got on the wrong interstate when headed the Twin Cities and ended up in northern Wisconsin. One of my projects in Wisconsin was inspected by the President of Stanley Tool at a plant that made locks for Ford. Nice man who invited me for lunch and drinks which I politely declined because I was hard at it and the job had to be completed by the next day to fulfill the contract because I had another project waiting in line. The President of Stanley Tool patted me on the back and said I understand.
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Old May 4th, 2017, 04:59 AM   #27
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How about this. I don't want MY tax dollars funding a private RELIGIOUS school ???

And if that school doesn't out perform the public system, why divert funds from the public system ?? The WHOLE POINT of the voucher program was that private schools would drastically out perform all those "failing public schools" . If they don't then we are simply allowing corporate America and churches access to the public treasury.


This is a convoluted puzzle with many pieces...and I think it's about GOP control. For years they have been complaining about the failing schools, money thrown at schools, the absence of prayer/God in schools, the liberal propaganda, teachers unions.....private/charter vouchers are the answer to the GOP's prayers. To be specific:
1) The debate over vouchers is usually centered on urban schools, since it provides the Republicans' dream pitch: A failing local school has parents of every color and creed looking for alternatives. Siphon money from the big government education pool, and let parents decide if they'd like to use it toward a private or charter school. School choice. It appeals to those dissatisfied urban parents — urban parents who, the demographics tell us, would usually vote Democratic.

2) Education is a multibillion dollar market, and the private sector is eager to get its hands on those dollars.
3) Conservatives are devoted to the free market and believe that private is inherently superior to public.
4) Shrinking public education furthers the Republican Party goal of drastically reducing the public sector.
5) Privatization undermines teacher unions, a key base of support for the Democratic Party.
6) Private/parochial schools will put GOD back in the driver's seat--Bible and abstinence.
7) African American and Latino voters will see the benefits of school choice and vote GOP??
There will be no more "silliness" over LGBT claims. Private schools label those issues as illegal, dangerous and a threat to privacy.
9) AND what about the LD students? Will private/charter schools be required by law to service those children? Currently they are NOT required by law to provide services to our special needs children.

Are you getting the whole picture yet? The GOP can sing the praises of school choice vouchers, but anyone who thinks this is a self-less act of generosity OR a way to raise the academic standards isn't thinking clearly. The GOP is a political machine, not a charity. They are not interested in academic success and we know that because we have not seen any sign of how the GOP/Betsy DeVos plans to track the success of their new voucher program? Curriculum? Standards?
This is a power play and there are two more things to consider.

*Our public schools are literally crumbling. 43 percent of schools indicated that the poor condition of their facilities interferes with the delivery of instruction. Roofing, staircases, peeling paint, mold, air conditioning, heat, leaky ceilings, environmental hazards inside school buildings.....more now than ever we need to repair our public schools. It should be part of our nation's infrastructure budget.

*Pulling resources from public schools is risky. Even if a school is faltering on objective and subjective measures, it's hard to see how reducing resources will improve the school. Instead, vouchers let for-profit private and charter schools skim the more capable — and wealthier — students from the public school system, risking an exacerbation of the existing problem.
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Old May 4th, 2017, 08:10 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Sabcat View Post
I am talking about "the healthcare for all" dream

Quite frankly, you're derailing your own argument with a bad analogy.

We've got apples and you're trying to disprove it by pointing to oranges.
I started to type more about "healthcare for all", but deleted it as I realized it would simply derail the real point of this thread. Suffice it to say that we always had "healthcare for all" before Obamacare which revolved around Urgent Care provided regardless of capability to pay, which cost taxpayers a LOT of money. From there, it's actually really a choice of figuring out the most efficient / cost-effective way to implement some form of "healthcare for all".


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first you guys are talking about the school as a whole and now you want to break it down to the teacher. A bit disingenuous don't you think?
Your reply is even more disingenuous.
YOU are the one who brought up health care when we're talking about schools. So if you seriously want to try to accuse me of being disingenuous, what does that say about you...

But let me spell it out for you since you've confused my point with "disingenuous".
Your analogy is wrong because it's not that simple. At many fundamental levels, it's just plain wrong.

And instead of replying to the point I made, you leave the conversation to go nowhere with this lame "disingenous" riff.


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Originally Posted by Sabcat View Post
In reality I would prefer to completely do away w/ the department of education. You are being a bit presumptuous here pumpkin.
And therein lies the problem.
People like you aren't interested in the real purposes of the program. You're ready to take chainsaws and axes and all sorts of other damaging approaches to it in order to destroy what is being provided, with the mindset that you're all entitled to carry off bits and pieces of the whole.

You're not.


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Originally Posted by Sabcat View Post
You just seem to be dancing around w/ accusations and strawmen here. Skipping over posts that address your questions.
This is hilarious considering your lack of meaningful reply.
Above, you derail your own argument.
You falsely accuse me of being "disingenous" while ignoring your own culpability with that ridiculous standard. Simultaneously, completely ignoring the substance of the point being made with your vacuous reply.
And in your last reply you ignore the actual point being made to point out a meaninglessly non-sequitur counter.


Do us all a favor.
Recognize the point and address that.
Or if you can't, recognize that and bow out of the discussion.
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Last edited by foundit66; May 4th, 2017 at 08:31 AM.
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Old May 4th, 2017, 08:28 AM   #29
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Why not? If the goal is to educate children why should it matter to someone who is not involved in the child's life where they are educated?
First off, you can't intelligibly reply to the fact that you have no right to make that demand with "why not".
YOU are the one asking for a huge status quo change. You can't prove your point's legitimacy with "why not".

Secondly, by your same stunted thinking we could proclaim that John Doe would no longer use the police force. Therefore he wants a rebate so he can buy his own guns to protect himself.
Suppose half the country did that. The police force would be decimated and the result would not be any meaningful improvement in public safety / law enforcement.

You started out your responses in this thread completely ignoring the HUGE point being made in the originating article.
federally funded voucher program has negative effect on student achievement

And now, pages later after you failed to learn the important points from the OP, you want to ask why you can't implement a voucher system?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabcat View Post
Now if the goal is indoctrination then you are right on point
These meaningless non-sequiturs do well for the sheeple that follow the right.
They aren't meaningful discussion points.

In reality, many of the right's arguments are Freudian in nature. The real point is that they want to send their children (on other people's dimes) to schools that the other people have no say on the curriculum.
To schools implement THEIR indoctrination.


Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66
In a similar manner, should I be able to deduct my lack of children from my taxes and stop paying for other people's kids?
Why should they be able to deduct their choice but I can't deduct mine?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabcat View Post
If you are not sending them through the public school system, why not? If you can show that you have spent that much money in a year on their education.
Do you realize I'm explaining "why not"?
And then you blithely skip past the discussion points...


The fact that you or others "have spent money on education" is irrelevant.
You had an option for the publicly funded option. You don't want that.
That's your choice.
But you don't get to demand OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY in order to help you expense your personal choices.
The taxpayers fund a public option for schooling.
If you want to choose something else, then you pay for it.

By this mentality if a bank offers a car loan, I should be able to take that money and just go buy hookers and beer. After all, it's just money for a choice, right?


But let me put this another way.
You are demanding that we change the status quo.
YOU should be providing justification for why we should change the status quo. And inventing a convoluted story as to how you think the system works (while ignoring people pointing out that it doesn't actually function that way) is NOT meaningful discourse...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabcat View Post
If the system is failing why reward it with even more money. Open it up to fair competition.
Is all you're going to do is repeat pithy propaganda speaking points?
Read the title again. And this time, actually address it...
federally funded voucher program has negative effect on student achievement

YOUR system is failing worse.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabcat View Post
refund? No. I don't think that you should be forced to pay in in the first place.
Another meaningless non-sequitur reply.
Which fits your overall goal of destroying public education. Which I guess we should all just recognize as you having duplicitous arguments whose only real purpose is to achieve that goal.

So let me make this plain to you, 'mmkay?
I want to pay for public schools where I have a say in how my tax dollar for that public school is spent.
Neither you nor any other parent have no right to demand my tax dollars to fund your choices while simultaneously cutting me out of how that money is spent.
The system was set up for us all to pay into a public education system where we all get a say in how the money is spent on the schools. It was never set up where I (or others) are paying other people's choices for their individual kids.
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Last edited by foundit66; May 4th, 2017 at 08:54 AM.
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