Political Forums  

Go Back   Defending The Truth Political Forum > Political Issues > Education

Education Educational System Forum - For topics and discussions about the educational system


Thanks Tree78Thanks
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old February 27th, 2018, 10:19 AM   #61
RNG
Senior Member
 
RNG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Between everywhere
Posts: 30,219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Athena View Post
Is anyone here a citizen of a European country? Somehow European countries manage to provide education for their citizens without putting the students in debt as students in the US are put in debt. Arguing this cannot be done when it is clearer done, doesn't make sense?
That's equally true of universal healthcare and gun control, so their arguing the same for "free" education is just continuing the stupidity.
RNG is offline  
Old February 27th, 2018, 10:24 AM   #62
Senior Member
 
BubbaJones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 7,562
I can't remember where I saw the quote but I though it was very true.
Quote:
If you think education is expensive, wait till you see what ignorance costs.
Thanks from Athena and Clara007
BubbaJones is offline  
Old February 28th, 2018, 09:50 AM   #63
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,754
When Eisenhower warned of the Military Industrial Complex, he warned of the power of a specialized elite. Education for technology caters to that because instead of internalizing authority, it externalizes authority and makes us dependent on "the authorities" of each field of knowledge. It heightens the belief that these "experts" are superior by raising the grade of graduation from a C average, meaning average people get desgrees, to requiring A/B grades. But studies do not justify this higher grade requirement. We also assume those graduating from the most expensive colleges are superior. Why? And how are they superior?

We have created a very ugly reality for ourselves that is opposed to democratic values and human values. We have frantically tried to keep up and have not questioned changes as well as we should. In a democracy, we need generalist, not specialist, and we need to prepare everyone to make his/her best contribution. Why are we intentionally creating a hierarchy of authority and divisions of inferior and superior people?
Athena is online now  
Old February 28th, 2018, 08:22 PM   #64
Senior Member
 
xMathFanx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: USA
Posts: 955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Athena View Post
How about every large community having specialized high schools, such as a high school focused on the medical profession, so upon graduation, students are well prepared for entry-level jobs, and then the work environment allowed for advancement, in on the job education programs.

Some places helped people become nurses by giving them the paid employment and also paying for their education.

I worked my way through college but so many people qualify for work experience jobs today, there simply are not enough jobs. However, I think we could improve upon that. It is a matter of realizing what can be done and intentionally organizing for that. However, there is a drawback. In my community, I see college students working for the practicums for free or very little pay, and then there are no jobs for them when they graduate because they are replaced by the next batch of college students.

If we had the democratic model for business/industry everyone would learn on the job and be in line for advancement.
This is changing the subject. Big Universities in the USA dominate the international rankings due to the business model employed which raises an incredible amount of money for research--which attracts the many of the greatest minds in the World to the US Academic/University system.

You suggested that it is the price itself of such institutions that must go down, while I stated the government guaranteed loans could/should be raised and/or Community College tuition go down in order to address the issue.

As for job training, Community Colleges offer a number of programs leading toward AS/AAS, Certificate, or apprenticeship that would lead to solid income level in the job market for various fields. Examples include (though not limited to):

-CAD
-Engineering Technician
-Nursing
-Dental Hygiene
-PTA
-Plumber
-Electrician
-Radiologist
-[quite a few others, ...]
xMathFanx is offline  
Old March 1st, 2018, 12:07 PM   #65
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: NM
Posts: 1,842
Wrong articulation

Quote:
Originally Posted by analyzer View Post
Just like it is in most other developed countries. ... Despite that, I think it could still be done. After all, a high school education is free. All that needs to be done is extend that to higher education. If I thought there was a snowflakes chance in hell of my ever being to afford college, I would have done better in high school.
Higher education meaning after high school? But the entire K-12th grade public school system is not free, it has never been free in the US, nor in the UK (nor French nor Dutch) colonies here before that, TMK.

Free public education is called that, but it's a misnomer. It's mostly free to the students & parents, but the budget monies typically come out of property taxes in the US - with some variations. The state may kick in some monies, the federal government may kick in some monies, there are grants & etc. from various agencies. But the bulk of the money comes from the state or local taxing district where the school is located.

To that extent, free public education is an investment in the future of the polity. The gamble is that educated citizens & workers are better citizens & workers. To date, that gamble has worked out.

Post-HS education might be worth extending to everyone who's interested in it - but that would require legislation & the will of the voters. I think it would make sense to target needed professions - doctors, nurses, teachers, STEM - to fill in any estimated shortfalls in preparing people otherwise (by their own efforts, without overt state intervention). If we can successfully meet manpower allocation needs by targeted interventions by the state to fill any gaps in manpower, that is worth looking @. If that effort is successful, then we can consider expanding it to other areas of endeavor.

But the idea needs to show success, beyond the usual +/- quibbles about statistical deviation - in order for us to make sensible decisions about such a program of educational subventions for a sizable portion of the college student population.
hoosier88 is offline  
Old March 1st, 2018, 01:01 PM   #66
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: NM
Posts: 1,842
Now leaving on track 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Athena View Post
Is anyone here a citizen of a European country? Somehow European countries manage to provide education for their citizens without putting the students in debt as students in the US are put in debt. Arguing this cannot be done when it is clearer done, doesn't make sense?
Yah, it can be done. The German & Japanese model are extensive tests of aptitude & related abilities in middle school - spatial orientation, maths, engineering, writing/composition & etc. Based on the outcomes of those tests, students are slotted into college track, industrial/technical, or general (as I recall - & this was decades ago, but TMK hasn't changed much.) The German model in particular manages a lot of technical training by apprenticeships, not sure if the costs are split among unions, companies & the state.

These models are effective, but note that the Japanese version used to cause a lot of distress among the students & families who were disappointed in the outcomes. Suicide used to be a leading cause of death among graduating students in Japan - there used to be a lot of competition for the college-track slots - which may have eased, if Japan's population is decreasing year by year.

The US system is much more open-ended. We tend to allow self-selection of college, vocational & general tracks. & so students who decide late in high school that they really want to apply themselves to a given area of study can do so. So the US model allows for a lot of individual freedom - because we don't limit the resources/manpower to a specific track. This system has worked for the US - if it needs review, then we should probably get @ it, & see if there's some better model out there that we can implement.
hoosier88 is offline  
Old March 1st, 2018, 01:11 PM   #67
RNG
Senior Member
 
RNG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Between everywhere
Posts: 30,219
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoosier88 View Post
Higher education meaning after high school? But the entire K-12th grade public school system is not free, it has never been free in the US, nor in the UK (nor French nor Dutch) colonies here before that, TMK.

Free public education is called that, but it's a misnomer. It's mostly free to the students & parents, but the budget monies typically come out of property taxes in the US - with some variations. The state may kick in some monies, the federal government may kick in some monies, there are grants & etc. from various agencies. But the bulk of the money comes from the state or local taxing district where the school is located.

To that extent, free public education is an investment in the future of the polity. The gamble is that educated citizens & workers are better citizens & workers. To date, that gamble has worked out.

Post-HS education might be worth extending to everyone who's interested in it - but that would require legislation & the will of the voters. I think it would make sense to target needed professions - doctors, nurses, teachers, STEM - to fill in any estimated shortfalls in preparing people otherwise (by their own efforts, without overt state intervention). If we can successfully meet manpower allocation needs by targeted interventions by the state to fill any gaps in manpower, that is worth looking @. If that effort is successful, then we can consider expanding it to other areas of endeavor.

But the idea needs to show success, beyond the usual +/- quibbles about statistical deviation - in order for us to make sensible decisions about such a program of educational subventions for a sizable portion of the college student population.
I think you would be hard pressed to find too many people who don't think that this free to user education system isn't a net benefit to society. Yes, there are many things that could be improved but it is overall a good thing.

BUT is that true of further study?

With quite a few caveats, I sat yes.
RNG is offline  
Old March 4th, 2018, 08:58 AM   #68
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,754
Quote:
Originally Posted by RNG View Post
I think you would be hard pressed to find too many people who don't think that this free to user education system isn't a net benefit to society. Yes, there are many things that could be improved but it is overall a good thing.

BUT is that true of further study?

With quite a few caveats, I sat yes.
The Older Americans Act made it possible for older citizens to audit college classes for free. Also, The Teaching Company sells college courses for very little money and our local library loans them out. I have also found some courses free online. In a democracy, it is important that citizens desire education for a lifetime and that they remain active participants in society.

I think the benefit of educating the entire population is worth the national investment in their education. Education, in general, lifts the human potential and improves civilization. It is the dream of the Enlightenment that we all become well informed and capable of self-government and liberty.

I wish there more interest in the question- what is the purpose of education because then we might realize the value of making education affordable and available to all.
Thanks from hoosier88
Athena is online now  
Old March 4th, 2018, 07:12 PM   #69
Senior Member
 
xMathFanx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: USA
Posts: 955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Athena View Post
The Older Americans Act made it possible for older citizens to audit college classes for free.
@Athena

Interesting. I know my University has an 'audit' option which allows anyone either enrolled at the college or a member of the public to take a full-load of courses for a very minimum fee (e.g. about $50)--for no College credit (but you will still have your tests, papers, ect. graded, if desired).

I have known quite a few 'senior citizens' that are retired who take advantage of this option, which I have always thought is very cool & a fantastic resource. It allows these people to continue learning as they desire as well as stay active in the community/world even in older age.

Also, occasionally, a student may use the 'audit' option prior to taking a course officially in the next semester or year in order to get a 'jump start' on the material. This will be used for classes that are perceived to be more difficult, such as a required Math, Physics, Chemistry, ect. course. Again, a very good resource.

Thoughts on 'Flipped-learning', MITOpencourseware, MOOC's, ect.?

Last edited by xMathFanx; March 4th, 2018 at 07:14 PM.
xMathFanx is offline  
Old March 4th, 2018, 07:45 PM   #70
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Earth
Posts: 1,265
Pretty basic, but education is not free. Public schools are paid for by the taxpayers, usually through property taxes, but by all taxes, since the Federal Government also kicks in money through the Department of Education. Or people can pay for private school, which ironically is cheaper per pupil than the public school mostly, unless the kid goes to a really high class boarding school in Vermont or Beverly Hills where the billionaires, politicians and people of that ilk send their brats.

My bone of contention is University education, which is too expensive for what the student receives. One problem is that the high schools are not teaching as a rule vocations or things that students can use out of high school without a college education. College is not for everyone. I hated college and for me was stressful and a waste of time. The economy for the past several decades has almost forced people to go to college to be able to get a white collar job or a job to make a good income, instead of on the job training. Education also looks down on blue collar workers as "losers", however mechanics, electricians, plumbers, machinists and the like make a good living usually. A good high school education and a willingness to learn and some aptitude is all one needs.

College needs to focus on what the student came to school to learn and not all the other bullshit. For example, I was a business major, but as a business major, I had to take a year of science (why, I took three years of science in high school), art history (a class everyone hated), two semesters of English literature. Really Freshman year is basically 13th grade in high school. I took all that bullshit in high school already and there is no reason to take classes on it on college when it isn't my major! These classes at a State U costs hundreds of dollars. Not to mention "activity fees" "parking fees" and whatever fees. Not to mention the dreaded, awful school bookstore which is a total ripoff, charging probably a $100 for a book for again a class that isn't your major you are forced to take. Colleges really feel their students are walking piggy banks and the students really feel they have no choice in the matter.

It is also not right that athletes get to go to college free because they can run with a ball. Or people in band. Or cheerleaders. Or really anyone, and everyone should pay the same amount. Really college should be the cost of the classroom, the professor, books, and maintenance and safety of the campus itself. Of course, you also have to consider that Harvard is going to be more expensive than Alcorn State because of the quality of the education, but there is no reason why schools cannot be affordable.

I think all schools should be privatized and no tax money should go for them, and the savings of tax for public school will be more than enough money for parents to decide where they want to send their children. Really school choice is the answer, and there should be free market competition, and the academic results and high scores is the measurement of the quality of the product a said school has to offer. Of course, this would never happen.
senor boogie woogie is offline  
Reply

  Defending The Truth Political Forum > Political Issues > Education

Tags
education, free, higher



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How Higher Education has become a Racket Sabcat Big Government 0 May 11th, 2017 07:44 AM
Higher Education Toefoot Education 1 December 20th, 2016 07:32 AM
Higher Education: Capitalism At Its Most Despicable LongWinded Current Events 88 October 30th, 2015 06:41 AM
Higher Education knot_e_lady Education 9 August 16th, 2007 12:50 PM


Facebook Twitter RSS Feed



Copyright © 2005-2013 Defending The Truth. All rights reserved.