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Old March 4th, 2018, 07:57 PM   #71
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Just like it is in most other developed countries. But then, those countries don't have the same problem with useless negroes and mexicans that we have. Despite that, I think it could still be done. After all, a high school education is free. All that needs to be done is extend that to higher education. If I thought there was a snowflakes chance in hell of my ever being to afford college, I would have done better in high school.
Not all Afro-Americans are worthless and many were my friends.

California once had free upper education but only for California residents. Today California has one of the highest tuition rates in the country. Allow me to suggest UC Berkeley which my dad claims his alma mater.
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Old March 4th, 2018, 08:19 PM   #72
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Higher education meaning after high school? But the entire K-12th grade public school system is not free, it has never been free in the US, nor in the UK (nor French nor Dutch) colonies here before that, TMK.

Free public education is called that, but it's a misnomer. It's mostly free to the students & parents, but the budget monies typically come out of property taxes in the US - with some variations. The state may kick in some monies, the federal government may kick in some monies, there are grants & etc. from various agencies. But the bulk of the money comes from the state or local taxing district where the school is located.

To that extent, free public education is an investment in the future of the polity. The gamble is that educated citizens & workers are better citizens & workers. To date, that gamble has worked out.

Post-HS education might be worth extending to everyone who's interested in it - but that would require legislation & the will of the voters. I think it would make sense to target needed professions - doctors, nurses, teachers, STEM - to fill in any estimated shortfalls in preparing people otherwise (by their own efforts, without overt state intervention). If we can successfully meet manpower allocation needs by targeted interventions by the state to fill any gaps in manpower, that is worth looking @. If that effort is successful, then we can consider expanding it to other areas of endeavor.

But the idea needs to show success, beyond the usual +/- quibbles about statistical deviation - in order for us to make sensible decisions about such a program of educational subventions for a sizable portion of the college student population.
College is for losers unless you play college football and then play for the NFL after graduating. Andrew Carnegie never went to college but yet became the richest man in the US. If you go to the public library then thank Carnegie who endowed his millions to build libraries all over the US. I gained my upper education by going to libraries and reading engineering, science and math books for free. Reading is Fundamental
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Old March 4th, 2018, 08:30 PM   #73
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College is for losers unless you play college football and then play for the NFL after graduating. Andrew Carnegie never went to college but yet became the richest man in the US. If you go to the public library then thank Carnegie who endowed his millions to build libraries all over the US. I gained my upper education by going to libraries and reading engineering, science and math books for free. Reading is Fundamental
The modern world still requires formal credentials in the form of a diploma(s) in order to become an Engineer, Chemist, Physicist, Mathematician, ect. Now, I agree that there are more efficient ways of testing a person qualifications in a particular discipline which in principle would not require formal education path, however if one wants access into the arena as of present, they must go by the 'gatekeepers' of University system. That hardly qualifies as a "loser", rather such a person is doing what is necessary in order to compete in the desired arena.

If you are interested in this topic, from the point of view you submitted, I would encourage you to look up Freeman Dyson--a prominent Mathematician/Physicist who is highly critical of the PhD system & in fact, never got a PhD himself even though he is famous in the community.
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Old March 5th, 2018, 04:16 AM   #74
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Pretty basic, but education is not free. Public schools are paid for by the taxpayers, usually through property taxes, but by all taxes, since the Federal Government also kicks in money through the Department of Education. Or people can pay for private school, which ironically is cheaper per pupil than the public school mostly, unless the kid goes to a really high class boarding school in Vermont or Beverly Hills where the billionaires, politicians and people of that ilk send their brats.

My bone of contention is University education, which is too expensive for what the student receives. One problem is that the high schools are not teaching as a rule vocations or things that students can use out of high school without a college education. College is not for everyone. I hated college and for me was stressful and a waste of time. The economy for the past several decades has almost forced people to go to college to be able to get a white collar job or a job to make a good income, instead of on the job training. Education also looks down on blue collar workers as "losers", however mechanics, electricians, plumbers, machinists and the like make a good living usually. A good high school education and a willingness to learn and some aptitude is all one needs.

College needs to focus on what the student came to school to learn and not all the other bullshit. For example, I was a business major, but as a business major, I had to take a year of science (why, I took three years of science in high school), art history (a class everyone hated), two semesters of English literature. Really Freshman year is basically 13th grade in high school. I took all that bullshit in high school already and there is no reason to take classes on it on college when it isn't my major! These classes at a State U costs hundreds of dollars. Not to mention "activity fees" "parking fees" and whatever fees. Not to mention the dreaded, awful school bookstore which is a total ripoff, charging probably a $100 for a book for again a class that isn't your major you are forced to take. Colleges really feel their students are walking piggy banks and the students really feel they have no choice in the matter.

It is also not right that athletes get to go to college free because they can run with a ball. Or people in band. Or cheerleaders. Or really anyone, and everyone should pay the same amount. Really college should be the cost of the classroom, the professor, books, and maintenance and safety of the campus itself. Of course, you also have to consider that Harvard is going to be more expensive than Alcorn State because of the quality of the education, but there is no reason why schools cannot be affordable.

I think all schools should be privatized and no tax money should go for them, and the savings of tax for public school will be more than enough money for parents to decide where they want to send their children. Really school choice is the answer, and there should be free market competition, and the academic results and high scores is the measurement of the quality of the product a said school has to offer. Of course, this would never happen.
I agree, the cost of college books, like the cost of some drugs, is outrageous. The cost of a college education and medical care is outrageous. Both fields of profit are taking advantage of people to the degree of being unethical, and this brings me to a second point I want to make.

Personally, I am in favor of a well-rounded education. Our educations are not just for getting paid for what we learn to do, but for our development as human beings who live in a community of human beings and hold responsibility for their government and institutions.

Humans do not just become reasonable and mature adults. We are only as good as our education. A society that encourages people to exploit each other, as our society is doing at this time, may not be the best society. People who only learn a vocation may not be well-developed humans. There is more to life than money and material values.
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Old March 5th, 2018, 04:23 AM   #75
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College is for losers unless you play college football and then play for the NFL after graduating. Andrew Carnegie never went to college but yet became the richest man in the US. If you go to the public library then thank Carnegie who endowed his millions to build libraries all over the US. I gained my upper education by going to libraries and reading engineering, science and math books for free. Reading is Fundamental
How did you get an employer to recognize your knowledge? I think colleges and textbook publishers can get away with ripping us off because so many jobs require degrees and a person can't even get an interview without the degree. We have agreed to a system of education and employment that makes us dependent and this undermines the whole of our society. We could have a better system, but we have to unite and act on it for it to be so.
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Old March 5th, 2018, 06:20 AM   #76
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How did you get an employer to recognize your knowledge? I think colleges and textbook publishers can get away with ripping us off because so many jobs require degrees and a person can't even get an interview without the degree. We have agreed to a system of education and employment that makes us dependent and this undermines the whole of our society. We could have a better system, but we have to unite and act on it for it to be so.
Yes. It is interesting, in order to go to Graduate School for Mathematics say, then one is essentially required to take the GRE Subject Test corresponding to Math. Now, that test covers a wide range of Undergraduate level material, and the probability of a person doing well on it who is not sound in the subject areas is nearly non-existent. Then, it is a decent display of one's abilities in the areas that a formal degree (with corresponding 4+ years schooling) is not necessary to indicate 'proficiency'. The test combined with an a presentation/verbal/ect. in front of a qualified reviewers would be plenty enough to demonstrate 'proficiency' in the area--though it is currently not accepted. It is a scam of sorts, really. The Universities are given extreme power in this respect, which upon examination, is not at all necessary.

From personal experience, I learn nearly everything outside of class--showing up to class in person, ect. is really just an unnecessary formality. There is really no reason a person should not be allowed to independently study for a test or series of tests in an area which could be administered at local testing centers (e.g. local library, ect.)--which, if passed, would sufficiently demonstrate knowledge in the subject and credential them equivalent to the level they passed (i.e. A.S., B.S., M.S., ect.) without spending an incredible amount of money as well as the mandated time frame (which is quite extended). Also, this would really allow people to rise and fall based upon their own merit, as money would be essentially taken out of the equation.
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Old March 5th, 2018, 07:42 AM   #77
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The journeyman path is the one of the future and is already happening in tech. Higher education as we know it is dying. I have associates who do coding and shit. They have stopped taking kids out of college as by the time they graduate they are behind the eight ball. They take them right out of high school or the streets and teach them themselves. This is the future. I foresee STEM schools developing independent of what we see as colleges, tossing asside classes that have nothing to do w/ the chosen field of study streamlining the process and making it much more affordable and appealing to future employers.

Higher education as it sits today does not benefit society when weighed out to the negitive effects it has on our youth. Just making it "free" will not fix that as it will just move the disgustingly inflated costs from the student to the population never addressing the fundamental flaws in the system.

Shit, the state cannot get k-12 right why shoud we turn more of higher education. IMO it is their involvement that has fucked it all up in the first place.
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Old March 5th, 2018, 07:57 AM   #78
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The journeyman path is the one of the future and is already happening in tech. Higher education as we know it is dying. I have associates who do coding and shit. They have stopped taking kids out of college as by the time they graduate they are behind the eight ball. They take them right out of high school or the streets and teach them themselves. This is the future. I foresee STEM schools developing independent of what we see as colleges, tossing asside classes that have nothing to do w/ the chosen field of study streamlining the process and making it much more affordable and appealing to future employers.

Higher education as it sits today does not benefit society when weighed out to the negitive effects it has on our youth. Just making it "free" will not fix that as it will just move the disgustingly inflated costs from the student to the population never addressing the fundamental flaws in the system.

Shit, the state cannot get k-12 right why shoud we turn more of higher education. IMO it is their involvement that has fucked it all up in the first place.
@Sabcat

It is interesting, as there is quite a dilemma mounting. That is, on the one hand, exclusively Technical schools of the type you describe are far more practical for employment purposes; which would attract many people away from the traditional Universities. On the other hand, traditional Universities have all the funding, and thus are responsible for a massive bulk of Scientific, ect. progress which would not be possible if it were not for the funding. Then, if students leave traditional Universities for alternative technical schools, this will have an enormous impact on the scientific advancement/stalling, economy, American prestige (as the University system in the US is of the highest quality in the World), ect.

A bit off topic: There is also a huge waste of resources by demanding Professors take out significant chunks of time to instruct Undergrads. on the same fundamental courses over & over again when they could be doing important research. Students could simply watch pre-recorded lectures, tutoring services as needed, ect. to learn the material rather than the archaic method still used as of present. Actually, 'flipped learning' is starting to push education in this direction.
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Old March 5th, 2018, 08:14 AM   #79
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I think professional football is on the way out anyway

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College is for losers unless you play college football and then play for the NFL after graduating. Andrew Carnegie never went to college but yet became the richest man in the US. If you go to the public library then thank Carnegie who endowed his millions to build libraries all over the US. I gained my upper education by going to libraries and reading engineering, science and math books for free. Reading is Fundamental
I agree that the US could project the need for doctors/nurses in rural areas, for instance. & if there are shortfalls (there are), then we could see about encouraging health professionals with low-cost loans or outright grants, with the proviso that they'll serve x number of years in a rural area that is underserved by health care professionals.

We could pilot that, & see how it works out. (National Defense Student Loans used to do the same with teachers, as I recall. Some debt was cancelled for each year of service.)

As long as we monitor the program carefully, & subsidize needed professions or career tracks, & the program @ least breaks even, I think it would be supported by taxpayers & Congress.

Should colleges be farm teams for professional sports? I don't think so - & some schools merely become smokescreens for illegal alumni involvement in recruiting sports talent, covering up disqualifying crimes by players or staff, good-ol'-boy networks for star athletes - all to the detriment of the purported goal of higher education, which is the education of the students, as opposed to renting out the cap & gown to cover perfidy & inflict harm upon the educational enterprise, the morals of student-athletes, athletic staff, & sell more beer, cars, vacations, airline trips, hotel stays & the other carrots on the stick to the masses.

Even the star college football players & NFL players in the quote - if they stay in the game, they wind up suffering from too many hits, bad joints, possible spine or CNS problems, suffering side-effects of painkillers, opiates & whatever else professional athletes take to relieve the pain. Shortened lifespans, constant pain, bankruptcy (either poor financial planning, exorbitant medical expenses, or both). It hardly seems like the American Dream to me.
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Old March 5th, 2018, 08:16 AM   #80
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@Sabcat

It is interesting, as there is quite a dilemma mounting. That is, on the one hand, exclusively Technical schools of the type you describe are far more practical for employment purposes; which would attract many people away from the traditional Universities. On the other hand, traditional Universities have all the funding, and thus are responsible for a massive bulk of Scientific, ect. progress which would not be possible if it were not for the funding. Then, if students leave traditional Universities for alternative technical schools, this will have an enormous impact on the scientific advancement/stalling, economy, American prestige (as the University system in the US is of the highest quality in the World), ect.

A bit off topic: There is also a huge waste of resources by demanding Professors take out significant chunks of time to instruct Undergrads. on the same fundamental courses over & over again when they could be doing important research. Students could simply watch pre-recorded lectures, tutoring services as needed, ect. to learn the material rather than the archaic method still used as of present. Actually, 'flipped learning' is starting to push education in this direction.


I hear what you are saying and agree for the most part but right now the general population conflates studying lesbian dance theory and applied mathematics as all "just going to college" until we can be honest w/ ourselves as a society in how they absolutely are not even close to equivalent and should not be treated as such. Maybe we need to starve the beast so to say and force higher education to become higher education again. It is not for everyone. It should be very difficult. It is ridiculous that the person who makes my coffee in the morning holds a four year degree and the astronomical debt that goes along w/ it. I believe that it is criminal that we just push kids into college and debt for no other reason than it "is what you have to do to survive"

As for your pre-recorded lectures exc... i believe that is the future of "k-12" we have the internet now. Why shouldn't the children all have the best of the best teacing them. There is so much wasted resorces on how the school system is currently set up. It is archaic.


This is a long interview but i like how this guy thinks. You may enjoy him.


Owen Benjamin

https://youtu.be/q-0V-gUuvW8
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Last edited by Sabcat; March 5th, 2018 at 08:19 AM.
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