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Old November 11th, 2017, 05:08 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Sabcat View Post
American liberals are collectivists.


This is the divide. Individualist vs collectivist.


I agree....to a point, but isn't the divide necessary? I mean we can't completely BE one or the other. Societies are built BECAUSE of that. Both collectivism and individualism built this nation. Individual rights are essential for a "free" society but are insufficient for a free and MORAL society. Then the question becomes "which morals"? My morals or YOUR morals? The narrowing becomes the issue.

Liberals are collectivists, but still, believe in individualism. Liberal governance is about demanding of citizens that they balance self-interest with common interest--that they (we) contribute to a project larger than ourselves.
The other side (Individualists) see this ideology as theft--tyranny.

It seems to me the issue is now and has always been finding a compromise.
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Old November 11th, 2017, 11:01 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Clara007 View Post
I agree....to a point, but isn't the divide necessary? I mean we can't completely BE one or the other. Societies are built BECAUSE of that. Both collectivism and individualism built this nation. Individual rights are essential for a "free" society but are insufficient for a free and MORAL society. Then the question becomes "which morals"? My morals or YOUR morals? The narrowing becomes the issue.

Liberals are collectivists, but still, believe in individualism. Liberal governance is about demanding of citizens that they balance self-interest with common interest--that they (we) contribute to a project larger than ourselves.
The other side (Individualists) see this ideology as theft--tyranny.

It seems to me the issue is now and has always been finding a compromise.


Societies are either built on willing participation or subjugation. In the days of kings the state robbed the people only to add to the wealth of the monarchy. Just because we have now seen a slight of hand and a small percentage of that stolen wealth is returned back to the people in forms of gifts that the people have not asked for does not make it an acceptable practice. We.are still subjects. If i do not wish for my wealth to be stolen for "the good of the collective" then i am kidnapped and stuffed into a cage. This is theft by the very definition of the word.


In the thread i started about common goals the guy in the video put it perfectly. When there were common goals these things could be over looked as there were common goals but as this cultural Marxist ideology continues to take root, and the leftists have replaced what was once american liberals tbe goals are no longer even similar.


Removing identity politics from this specific discussion we can examine two specific issues that show these differences. Immigration, specifically refugees and gun control.

Collectivists see nothing wrong with importing tens of thousands of uneducated and unskilled people and on the government dole.


Collectivists see nothing wrong with confiscating fire arms from the people and putting them all in the hands of the the state.
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Old November 12th, 2017, 04:51 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Sabcat View Post
Societies are either built on willing participation or subjugation. In the days of kings the state robbed the people only to add to the wealth of the monarchy. Just because we have now seen a slight of hand and a small percentage of that stolen wealth is returned back to the people in forms of gifts that the people have not asked for does not make it an acceptable practice. We.are still subjects. If i do not wish for my wealth to be stolen for "the good of the collective" then i am kidnapped and stuffed into a cage. This is theft by the very definition of the word.


In the thread i started about common goals the guy in the video put it perfectly. When there were common goals these things could be over looked as there were common goals but as this cultural Marxist ideology continues to take root, and the leftists have replaced what was once american liberals tbe goals are no longer even similar.


Removing identity politics from this specific discussion we can examine two specific issues that show these differences. Immigration, specifically refugees and gun control.

Collectivists see nothing wrong with importing tens of thousands of uneducated and unskilled people and on the government dole.


Collectivists see nothing wrong with confiscating fire arms from the people and putting them all in the hands of the the state.



Societies are built on BOTH willing participation AND subjugation. Millions immigrated to this country TO participate. Millions are willing to adhere to laws and leaders. Laws must be made. Citizens MUST follow those laws or be thrown into a cage. If those citizens don't wish to follow those laws or participate they are free to leave this country.

We the people still share common goals. In fact, most of us want the same things: health, housing, safety, work, friends, and family. We may not agree how to obtain and maintain those goals, ergo the two political party systems.

Immigration has been controlled by numbers and laws as far back as Ellis Island and we do NOT import immigrants. That statement implies that we "select certain individuals and advertise". We do not send out "HEY Immigrants! HELP WANTED! Apply to Uncle Sam at this address."

AND your last statement is absurd. No one has confiscated firearms. The 2nd Amendment still stands and the number of guns in this country has increased, NOT decreased. According to the Congressional Research Service, there are roughly twice as many guns per capita in the United States as there were in 1968: more than 300 million guns in all.
Gun sales have increased in recent years. According to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, U.S. gun-makers produced nearly 11 million guns in 2013, the year after the Sandy Hook elementary school massacre. That's twice as many as they made in 2010.

I understand what you want, Sabcat. You've made your point, but you are NEVER going to have the type of government (or lack of government) that you want. But hey, I guess you can dream.
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Old November 12th, 2017, 07:03 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabcat View Post
Societies are either built on willing participation or subjugation. In the days of kings the state robbed the people only to add to the wealth of the monarchy. Just because we have now seen a slight of hand and a small percentage of that stolen wealth is returned back to the people in forms of gifts that the people have not asked for does not make it an acceptable practice. We.are still subjects. If i do not wish for my wealth to be stolen for "the good of the collective" then i am kidnapped and stuffed into a cage. This is theft by the very definition of the word.


In the thread i started about common goals the guy in the video put it perfectly. When there were common goals these things could be over looked as there were common goals but as this cultural Marxist ideology continues to take root, and the leftists have replaced what was once american liberals tbe goals are no longer even similar.


Removing identity politics from this specific discussion we can examine two specific issues that show these differences. Immigration, specifically refugees and gun control.

Collectivists see nothing wrong with importing tens of thousands of uneducated and unskilled people and on the government dole.


Collectivists see nothing wrong with confiscating fire arms from the people and putting them all in the hands of the the state.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clara007 View Post
Societies are built on BOTH willing participation AND subjugation. Millions immigrated to this country TO participate. Millions are willing to adhere to laws and leaders. Laws must be made. Citizens MUST follow those laws or be thrown into a cage. If those citizens don't wish to follow those laws or participate they are free to leave this country.

We the people still share common goals. In fact, most of us want the same things: health, housing, safety, work, friends, and family. We may not agree how to obtain and maintain those goals, ergo the two political party systems.

Immigration has been controlled by numbers and laws as far back as Ellis Island and we do NOT import immigrants. That statement implies that we "select certain individuals and advertise". We do not send out "HEY Immigrants! HELP WANTED! Apply to Uncle Sam at this address."

AND your last statement is absurd. No one has confiscated firearms. The 2nd Amendment still stands and the number of guns in this country has increased, NOT decreased. According to the Congressional Research Service, there are roughly twice as many guns per capita in the United States as there were in 1968: more than 300 million guns in all.
Gun sales have increased in recent years. According to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, U.S. gun-makers produced nearly 11 million guns in 2013, the year after the Sandy Hook elementary school massacre. That's twice as many as they made in 2010.

I understand what you want, Sabcat. You've made your point, but you are NEVER going to have the type of government (or lack of government) that you want. But hey, I guess you can dream.

We do not share common goals. I have tried to discuss post modernism and cultural Marxism w/ you. Untill you can realize and understand that concept this part of the conversation is moot. I have posted multiple threads on the subject with people explaining it. I attempted to avoid this part of the discussion by addressing to basic issues both you also avoided in your response.


Good effort though.


What is the differance between a Muslim refugee and ET?

ET learned english and wanted to go home
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Old November 12th, 2017, 11:54 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabcat View Post
We do not share common goals. I have tried to discuss post modernism and cultural Marxism w/ you. Untill you can realize and understand that concept this part of the conversation is moot. I have posted multiple threads on the subject with people explaining it. I attempted to avoid this part of the discussion by addressing to basic issues both you also avoided in your response.


Good effort though.


What is the differance between a Muslim refugee and ET?

ET learned english and wanted to go home


We don't share common goals? You and me?? You do NOT want good health, housing, safety, work, friends, and family?? Exactly what DO YOU want--I mean other than a lawless society and chaos?
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Old November 12th, 2017, 05:07 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Clara007 View Post
We don't share common goals? You and me?? You do NOT want good health, housing, safety, work, friends, and family?? Exactly what DO YOU want--I mean other than a lawless society and chaos?
No common ground with no shared goal.
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Old November 12th, 2017, 05:41 PM   #37
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Sorry, not everybody wants to live in Ancapistan lol.

Last edited by Gordy; November 12th, 2017 at 11:07 PM.
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Old November 15th, 2017, 01:13 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goober View Post
They weren't anti free speech progressives, they were anti fascist progressives, protesting a "Pro Nazi" speech, defending what the Nazis did in Charlottesville.

They have a right to speak too, and if they turn out to be louder than the pro Nazi guy, maybe the Pro Nazi guy will figure out that his speech won't be received as well on a Liberal Campus as it is at a Nazi Rally.

(This post is an example of the over the top hyperbole that the right has been using for decades, and now they melt like snowflakes when they get a taste of it)
I saying racist is more enemy than Nazi for progressives.
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Old November 16th, 2017, 04:07 PM   #39
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It is still free, is just that not all people make sense. I have recently read a woman's post on twitter wherein she wants a certain person's dead instead of his crush. She was bashed by a lot of people, and never did she apologize. She keeps saying that netizens don't have the right to say foul words against her. The problem is that people tend to be insensitive with their commentaries. They just say whatever they want without looking at the consequences or rather should I say karma.
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Old November 17th, 2017, 10:21 AM   #40
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This isn't true at all. Liberalism, socialism, and the alt-right aren't the same thing at all.

The alt-right espouse Nazi ideology outright. Liberals believe in individual rights, liberty, etc. Socialists believe in common ownership of the means of production.
When free-speech is shut down by the act of violence, or the threat of violence, those using that tactic are by definition Nazi's. Be it far Left Liberals or the alt-right. There isn't one iota of difference between the two. Liberal ideology today, is NOT the Liberal ideology that it was founded on. Those espousing socialism had better look to history to see the outcome socialism brings. IMO, there is no logical reasoning for shutting down conservative speech's, other than promoting Liberal socialism.
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