Political Forums  

Go Back   Defending The Truth Political Forum > Political Issues > Education

Education Educational System Forum - For topics and discussions about the educational system


Thanks Tree22Thanks
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old January 1st, 2018, 06:38 AM   #21
Mayor of Realville
 
webguy4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Michigan
Posts: 15,617
Every child needs to be indoctrinated with ideas of responsibility, liberty, and morality.
Thanks from Athena
webguy4 is offline  
Old January 1st, 2018, 06:41 AM   #22
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,517
Quote:
Originally Posted by webguy4 View Post
Every child needs to be indoctrinated with ideas of responsibility, liberty, and morality.
Okay and how is that done?
Athena is offline  
Old January 1st, 2018, 06:55 AM   #23
Senior Member
 
Clara007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Arizona
Posts: 9,811
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHH_3zsvid4

Student wants a FREE day!
Clara007 is online now  
Old January 1st, 2018, 06:58 AM   #24
Senior Member
 
Clara007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Arizona
Posts: 9,811
Quote:
Originally Posted by webguy4 View Post
Every child needs to be indoctrinated with ideas of responsibility, liberty, and morality.


Indoctrinated? brainwash, propagandize, proselytize, reeducate, persuade, convince, condition, program, mold, discipline;

Liberty?? independence, freedom, autonomy, sovereignty, self-government, self-rule, self-determination;

Would this be for 10 yr olds??
Clara007 is online now  
Old January 1st, 2018, 07:13 AM   #25
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clara007 View Post
Here's the really disturbing part of this discussion and the detractors. Everybody's an "EXPERT" on public schools--on our education system--even though the majority haven't stepped FOOT in a public school/charter school/private school in decades. These same critics do not have a degree in education or any kind of pedagogy. All sorts of claims are made about what's being taught and what's NOT being taught--most of which are completely bogus.
There are successes and failures in every public school system. There are truly GREAT teachers and dreadful teachers in every school system. There are amazing administrators/school boards AND horrific administrators in every school system because those who teach and administrate are PEOPLE with obvious flaws.
Is memorization required? Of course. Are students tested on this memorization? Definitely. But propaganda? The promotion of political causes or points of view?? NO.

AND BTW, students ARE required to THINK, to debate, to create, to question, to problem solve. They are challenged every day...because part of the education process is to prepare them for LIFE after school--to be productive members of our society.
Excuse me, you just stepped on my toes and I am having a strong emotional reaction. I have been in a war with what the 1958 National Defense Education Act has done to the United States for at least 20 years, and really hope I don't come off as offensive, but I am aware of writing with passionate and negative feelings.

I have made many attempts to work with schools and at one time sat on a citizen's board dealing with school discipline. I have found our schools closed to interested citizens, and at times downright paranoid! For sure school personnel can be very rude in that they do not return calls or respond to written communication. That we are not engaged with the schools is not our fault. The walls to keep us out are strong.

A couple of times I have gotten into schools as a volunteer, and that was a lesson in futility. I witnessed children being psychologically abused and when I tried to do something about it by communicating the problems to the principle, I was dismissed. Schools are institutions with a strong defense system that prevents effective action. This is so not only so for me as a citizen but also the teachers who have been stripped of liberty and power= authority.

I will be glad to share my library with you that is a collection of old textbooks and books addressed to teachers, and new books about education. I also have a college education and if I were to start a revolution, I would start by burning down the colleges. Being a college graduate today means being well brainwashed and institutionalized because that is required for getting the high grades that are necessary for graduation, and only those who pass through this rite of passage will get the seats of power.

So now, why are you attacking us?
Thanks from Jimmyb and Sabcat
Athena is offline  
Old January 1st, 2018, 08:22 AM   #26
Senior Member
 
Clara007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Arizona
Posts: 9,811
Quote:
Originally Posted by Athena View Post
Excuse me, you just stepped on my toes and I am having a strong emotional reaction. I have been in a war with what the 1958 National Defense Education Act has done to the United States for at least 20 years, and really hope I don't come off as offensive, but I am aware of writing with passionate and negative feelings.

I have made many attempts to work with schools and at one time sat on a citizen's board dealing with school discipline. I have found our schools closed to interested citizens, and at times downright paranoid! For sure school personnel can be very rude in that they do not return calls or respond to written communication. That we are not engaged with the schools is not our fault. The walls to keep us out are strong.

A couple of times I have gotten into schools as a volunteer, and that was a lesson in futility. I witnessed children being psychologically abused and when I tried to do something about it by communicating the problems to the principle, I was dismissed. Schools are institutions with a strong defense system that prevents effective action. This is so not only so for me as a citizen but also the teachers who have been stripped of liberty and power= authority.

I will be glad to share my library with you that is a collection of old textbooks and books addressed to teachers, and new books about education. I also have a college education and if I were to start a revolution, I would start by burning down the colleges. Being a college graduate today means being well brainwashed and institutionalized because that is required for getting the high grades that are necessary for graduation, and only those who pass through this rite of passage will get the seats of power.

So now, why are you attacking us?


Athena, I am truly sorry for what you have experienced and honestly, I don't understand it. In every school/district I've ever worked in (40 years) volunteers have been welcomed with open arms. In fact, you are the first person who has expressed these negatives views/experiences with me because of their volunteering or attempts to volunteer.
I see you hail from Oregon and I am shocked to hear that Oregon schools have this reputation. Maybe I assume too much?
I applaud your efforts and hope you will try again. Volunteers are sorely needed in our schools--public or private.
My post is my opinion based on MY involvement and my interactions with students, parents, administrations and school board--also state and federal laws---for my entire life. I think "attacking" is a very strong word and it was certainly not my intent. Teachers are attacked every single day and I've been on the receiving end, but when I use the word "attack", I'm not talking about opinion--I'm talking about physical attacks, stalking, threats, knives, guns, fists, throwing chairs/textbooks, defecating in my classroom, defacing school property and explicatives....from children and parents.
So I hope you'll understand why I FEEL strongly about my opinions and experiences....and MY emotional reactions.
Thanks from Athena
Clara007 is online now  
Old January 1st, 2018, 08:55 AM   #27
Senior Member
 
xMathFanx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: USA
Posts: 848
@skews13, Athena, Clara007

Firstly, I will address Clara007's statements. I relatively recently graduated from the Public k-12 system, as I am now in my mid-twenties. Also, I am currently a Senior at a big Public/State University in the USA (e.g. U Texas, U Florida, Ohio State U, Penn State level school).

Second, to address Athene's initial point. I am not suggesting that the Public school system be dismantled (as you appeared to think was being suggested). Rather, I am motioning that there are immense issues with the current model that are in need of reform (if we want to produce a healthy, mature, developed, reasonable, ect. ect. populace that is more or less "on-the-same-page" or at least the "same book")

Third, to address skews13. Although there is certainly validity in much of your statements, it is ultimately missing the larger picture (in my view--which I will elaborate on now).

The largest issue (as I see it) is that people who respect intellectualism/independent creativity are in the extreme minority (I'm speaking strictly of adults now--those old enough to have been fully physically matured and have "life experience". One would expect them to have some wisdom to impart once they have been in the world for 3+ decades, although this is often not necessarily the case). Therefore, most people inevitably are not going to be fostered in such a way as to bring about the best in their intellectual/creative capacities while in the bulk of their most formative years (growing up), will lack exposure to areas outside of immediate contact (e.g. how is one going to "realize" they have a passion for and want to pursue Paleontology when all they have ever seen is their father/men watching Football and their mother/women at at minimum being very sympathetic to the father's/men's behavior/worldview?--I know that I am speaking rather generally here, but I think you understand my point). The scenario I described above, concerning the father, is firmly inside of what I often refer to as the Mammal Snow Globe World that most adults inhabit (and have tacitly agreed with each other not to "shake up"). In order to not shake up the Snow Globe, the adults are forced to subject their children to a Perpetual Firehose of Bullsh't or else (if the children found out any deep truths about ourselves and/or the Universe which have been discovered thus far) they would be bound to break free of the confinement.

As of right now, the education system is so bad and the adults are so oblivious/stupid/ignorant/arrogant that they can't even let the kids come in to school and watch credible lectures, documentaries, OpenCourseware or point them in the right direction with people to look up, book recommendations, the fundamental questions that any given topic is exploring , ect. The kids would be naturally drawn to this information if they were exposed to it, they simply are not exposed to it because there is an obscurantism at work that is pervasive in our society (and world wide). Instead, in the current system, children growing up through their teenage years into young adulthood are subjected to a Perpetual Firehose of Bullsh't through the "education" system and the "mature" adults in our societies.

People have been strongly primed to believe that magical type thinking is "wonderful", "beautiful", "interesting", "hopeful", "fun" ect. due to things like Sana Claus, Easter Bunny, Superhero tv/comics, Harry Potter type Sci-Fi, ect. ect. Although these things in-and-of-themselves are not harmful (and can be enriching in many ways), when combined with not being exposed to the real world, how it actually is and the methods by which we have determined our limited range of knowledge thus far, then the magic show becomes extremely pernicious. Also, the majority of adults are so attached to their infantile superstitious beliefs that they think learning science is "dry", "scary", "cold", "devoid of any deep meaning/feeling" and don't want their kids to learn it either for these reasons. This combination confines children to the mind-space of the Mammal Snow Globe rather than what me know of the Real World thus far.

Furthermore, the leaders of the business world and governments (the powerful classes) have a vested interested in keeping the populace misinformed, uneducated, unintelligent, conditioned toward obedience, ect.

Now, after people hit a certain age there is going to be a level of courage required of people in order to break free of the Mammal Snow Globe World for which they have always resided. We are in difficult times because we cannot allow people to program their children with this primitive mindset and we also cannot force them to teach their children a certain way either without becoming completely tyrannical. Even people who have the potential to be intelligent (or highly-intelligent) and make real contributions to society/progress are being reduced to half-mentally disabled, chimp-human hybrids (i.e. never fully progress/develop our of being merely a Mammal and toward a Homo Sapien, so to speak--"Mammalhood") that are destroying society/the upcoming generations (and it is sad/alarming because I have seen a lot of this at Uni. particularly in the technical subjects). The overwhelming bulk of the adult population are oblivious to just how breathtakingly unrespectable people they are for indoctrinating their kids into their bullsh't instead of having the courage to face reality (as we currently understand it) as well as how they comport themselves in life more broadly.

I stated that "they" are confined to "Mammalhood", because Homo Sapiens living in the 21st century fails to truly capture it. Brain Development in Humans/Homo Sapiens is an important factor here, because one does not truly acquire the unique characteristics that make us "Human" until you are in your low to mid twenties or so when frontal lobe development is completed. Now, there are many factors that can potentially "derail" this development such as excessive alcohol abuse, chronic stress, social isolation, other types of drug abuse, ect. I think that due to the way our society is structured, a huge bulk of peoples brains are not becoming properly/fully developed and confine them to a stage of quasi-Homo Sapiens (e.i. more like an adolescent or quasi-adolescent brain) for the entirety of their life. Now, it would be highly probable that said people are unable to recognize the failure of their brains to fully mature since their mind-space would have complete continuity from their adolescents-young adulthood-adulthood, and simply think that "this is how things are" while failing to realize that a "shift" should have been felt at some point in their twenties to thirty that is significantly different than that of the teenage mind/brain.

Now, the k-12 public school teachers typically defines the lower-end educated class as merely a Bachelor's degree in Education or the like is required to earn the job rather than the more advanced levels of formal Education required of College/University Professors for example. Due to this, the k-12 teachers tend to be aware/educated/intelligent enough to teach the material they are instructed to in the curriculum, however lack the depth of critical thought to challenge the system itself and thus are unaware that they are in fact subjecting the children to a Perpetual Firehose of Bullsh't.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After one has completed the k-12 system, serious problems in our education system persists (although importantly it improves). In our current Education system (i.e. USA's and elsewhere), one could acquire a PhD in Biology (or any other STEM discipline) from Princeton (or some other elite school) and still be a confined to Mammal Snow Globe World, thus lacking the requisite critical thinking skills that would allow them to escape the mind-space for which they were raised.

A lot of the sane Professors are cowed into silence due to the hierarchy of the University system. That is, if a Biology professor wants to talk with candor about Evolution (not in the "textbook" way, but in the real way that "hits home" with the students who are mostly very young still), then en masse, he is going to shake up the students Snow Globe in such a way that will be very perturbing/frightening/shocking/intimidating/ect. for them with 5 separate classrooms each full of 25-200+ students (depending on the course) every semester. Now, they are immediately going to run into a huge amount of trouble, because some good percentage of these kids are bound to tell their parents about it, they and/or their parents are going to complain/issue a report to the "higher-ups" in the administration (who have no understanding nor interest with what the Professors know or the nature of the subjects, while also fancying themselves as "intelligent" because they are "successful" in the business world so they are very stubborn), the Professor very likely could/almost definitely lose their job (that they went to school for over a decade plus post-doc position just to be sufficiently credentialed to get the job). Therefore, this creates a "safe" environment for the ignorant/stupid "people to get "educated" and "earn" their degree without really understanding an iota of the subject. Furthermore, the students who are sane/outside the Snow Globe and really want to know about the true nature of the topics in detail are "missing out" because the teachers intentionally never say enough to "bridge-a-gap" for their own sake. Thus, one would have to do a lot of extracurricular studies in addition to the formal studies just in order to keep pace with the reality of what is being taught. However, since they are undergrads, the whole point in the schooling in the first place is to receive proper mentorship from a qualified instructor, hence they do not necessarily know where to look in order get to the truth of the matter and keep pace. In short, it is hopelessly f'cked up unless society changes first.
Thanks from Athena
xMathFanx is online now  
Old January 1st, 2018, 09:47 AM   #28
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clara007 View Post
Athena, I am truly sorry for what you have experienced and honestly, I don't understand it. In every school/district I've ever worked in (40 years) volunteers have been welcomed with open arms. In fact, you are the first person who has expressed these negatives views/experiences with me because of their volunteering or attempts to volunteer.
I see you hail from Oregon and I am shocked to hear that Oregon schools have this reputation. Maybe I assume too much?
I applaud your efforts and hope you will try again. Volunteers are sorely needed in our schools--public or private.
My post is my opinion based on MY involvement and my interactions with students, parents, administrations and school board--also state and federal laws---for my entire life. I think "attacking" is a very strong word and it was certainly not my intent. Teachers are attacked every single day and I've been on the receiving end, but when I use the word "attack", I'm not talking about opinion--I'm talking about physical attacks, stalking, threats, knives, guns, fists, throwing chairs/textbooks, defecating in my classroom, defacing school property and explicatives....from children and parents.
So I hope you'll understand why I FEEL strongly about my opinions and experiences....and MY emotional reactions.
Good meaningful discussion and I trusted you would be good for that. I want to say what a difference our relationships make in how we understand each other. Some people seem intent on offending others, and you are not one of them, so I knew the problem was my emotions, not you. I want to be sensitive to your feelings and I am afraid I am not as good a communicator as I want to be, especially not when I am driven my emotions. Just know I do care about your feelings.

What I think of our schools is not public opinion. My opinion is very different from all others.

I was in school when the 1958 National Defense Education Act was passed, and I remember the day teachers in the LA school district were informed of the change in education because it was such a frightening day. The teachers were walking around in a state of shock and none of them were talking about what happened until about 3rd period when a male teacher told us the purpose of education had been changed and from this moment forward we would be prepared for a technological society with unknown values.

Now I must ask you, what are the dates of your entire life involved with schools, because we are probably coming from two completely worlds, and this needs to be established or thrown out as a wrong assumption on my part. Every year we get further from the liberal education we had, and the transmission of our culture that we had, the worse things get. However, I don't want to be overly simplistic. One of the Hollywood schools I attended made the news several years ago, because of the number of teachers suffering battle fatigue. That school was in serious trouble when I attended and I remember thinking the way the problem was being handled made matters worse! Oh yes, I think I know the war of which you speak. When middle-class teachers start thinking of the students as the enemy and treat all them equally (and I must add, the students and their parents have no concept of self-discipline), a very bad thing happens. One of my books for teachers explains how important this equality is. I would like to point out it can be very dehumanizing.

My grandmother became a teacher around the period when we mobilized for the first world war. Her generation of teachers understood the importance of defending our democracy in the classroom. She was such a devoted teacher she continued teaching long after she was forced to retire. She had always taught in public schools, but they would not hire her when she reached retirement age, so she taught in private schools and then as a volunteer. I was shocked when she walked away from one of her jobs because the school administration interfered with her discipline of students. I know the schools think the parents cause the discipline problem. I have a different perspective on this.

When I sat on the school discipline committee, I came with my history and my grandmother's passion for education, and I was very hurt when school principles were paranoid and refused to speak with me, as though they thought a citizen was the enemy of the school. Only some of them would give me the information essential to the committee. That was very poor coordination between the citizen committee and the schools! I was shocked by the failure of committee members to ask questions and the principles' failure to work with us. This followed several years of being a school volunteer, and at this point, I really knew extremely little about the change in education, but was naively just trying to please everyone and be a good citizen with children in school.

Not until everything went wrong did I start buying old books to discover what it meant to defend democracy in the classroom. By everything went wrong, I mean the social problems that lead to the US announcing a national youth crisis. A national youth crisis? What is the one thing that changed all over the US? The defined purpose of education. By then my grandmother was dead and I realized she could no longer defend our democracy in the classroom. My own son and daughter were caught up in the youth crisis, and nothing is more important to me than raising awareness of what happened and what this to do with Military Industrial Complex and the Germany we defended we our democracy against in two world wars.

It did not help when the well-meaning people at the school made it possible for my daughter to use the school phone to call her aunt and make arrangements to go live with her aunt, without informing me of this. The school was so helpful, they even assured my daughter they would give her a ride to the bus station when she got to school. If at the last minute my daughter had told me she was leaving, I would have had no idea where she was when she didn't come home. That is the result of making teachers the experts on children, and cutting the parents out of the decision-making process. The school so undermined my parental authority I never got it back. That is one of the problems with education for a technological society with unknown values.

I hope you can appreciate why I get my back up when someone speaks as though the national youth crisis is because we suddenly had a mass of bad parents who don't care about their children's education.

Last edited by Athena; January 1st, 2018 at 10:09 AM.
Athena is offline  
Old January 1st, 2018, 10:25 AM   #29
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,517
xMathFanx, I am mentally exhausted at the moment but read enough of your post to know I really want to read the whole thing and ponder what you have to say. I am going to take care of some errands and hopefully swim some laps at the gym. I pray I regain enough energy to get back to you later, and will make a note to myself to check your post first thing in the morning if I don't get to it today.

NOTHING IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE DISCUSSION WE ARE HAVING. I think both Clara and I feel devoted to education and the children, and that is what makes this discussion a hard one to have, but with people who care so much there is a lot of hope of something really good coming out of this discussion.

PS just read
Quote:
A lot of the sane Professors are cowed into silence due to the hierarchy of the University system.
I am in a state of shock that someone who sees this besides me. I think there is something deep in our culture at the moment that is drawing us away from reasoning and into destructive power plays.
Thanks from xMathFanx

Last edited by Athena; January 1st, 2018 at 10:29 AM.
Athena is offline  
Old January 2nd, 2018, 07:16 AM   #30
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,517
Quote:
quote by xMathFanx... The largest issue (as I see it) is that people who respect intellectualism/independent creativity are in the extreme minority (I'm speaking strictly of adults now--those old enough to have been fully physically matured and have "life experience". One would expect them to have some wisdom to impart once they have been in the world for 3+ decades, although this is often not necessarily the case). Therefore, most people inevitably are not going to be fostered in such a way as to bring about the best in their intellectual/creative capacities while in the bulk of their most formative years (growing up), will lack exposure to areas outside of immediate contact (e.g. how is one going to "realize" they have a passion for and want to pursue Paleontology when all they have ever seen is their father/men watching Football and their mother/women at at minimum being very sympathetic to the father's/men's behavior/worldview?--I know that I am speaking rather generally here, but I think you understand my point). The scenario I described above, concerning the father, is firmly inside of what I often refer to as the Mammal Snow Globe World that most adults inhabit (and have tacitly agreed with each other not to "shake up"). In order to not shake up the Snow Globe, the adults are forced to subject their children to a Perpetual Firehose of Bullsh't or else (if the children found out any deep truths about ourselves and/or the Universe which have been discovered thus far) they would be bound to break free of the confinement.
The Greeks thought the gods chose heroes but not everyone chosen to be a hero was willing to follow through with being one. They thought in general the masses were as cattle, content to graze the field and uninterested in thinking too much. My father who was a NASA engineer said man avoids thinking as much as possible, and I was totally offended because nothing gives me more pleasure than thinking. What is this about? Why do we take such great pride in our intelligence when it appears so few are interested in using their intelligence?

Greek philosophy also claimed we are made in the image of the gods, because we have the capacity to reason, and it is our nature to be political. Instead of a Christian notion of God, and they shared a concept of logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe made manifest in speech. This is what leads to democracy, the notion that we can live by reason and that everyone should participate in the reasoning, so that we have a consensus on the best reasoning, as the gods who argued until they had a consensus on the best reasoning.

How do we deal with these conflicting ideas and what we value versus we what we witness? xMathFanx, your observation seems accurate, and that does not lead to democracy in a modern world. I am contemplating the nature of human males. God, love them, but they do seem happiest when they are left alone to watch the foot ball, and they do seem to avoid too much thinking, and especially when it can lead to the emotional conflict of being political! This can be avoided with black and white thinking, and not questioning what one thinks and why one thinks that. There are some problems with this, especially when someone like this is leading the country and his followers are glad to follow, and react emotionally instead of intellectually, like fans sitting the bleachers of a foot ball game.

Can education make a difference? I have an answer to this question, but I will wait to hear how others answer this question.
Thanks from xMathFanx
Athena is offline  
Reply

  Defending The Truth Political Forum > Political Issues > Education

Tags
designed, indoctrinate, propaganda, public, schools, systems, young



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Milton Friedman schools young Bernie Sanders about poverty Sabcat Big Government 2 May 16th, 2017 01:21 PM
Nevada’s New Voucher Plan Is Designed to Bankrupt Public Schools LongWinded Current Events 62 August 3rd, 2015 08:32 PM
Understanding The Propaganda Against Public Education skews13 Current Events 12 April 2nd, 2014 01:08 PM
Why do people protest Public Healthcare, but not Public Schools? amarinaccio514 Healthcare 51 October 12th, 2009 09:20 AM
Prayer in Public Schools!! John Religion 302 April 12th, 2007 05:48 PM


Facebook Twitter RSS Feed



Copyright © 2005-2013 Defending The Truth. All rights reserved.