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Old January 17th, 2018, 09:13 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Athena View Post
We all have limited time and energy. I wish to focus my time and energy on school indoctrination and the change in public education. Threads are more comprehensive and can actually make a difference when they remain on topic.

Freedom of speech is an important topic and we have a thread for that. This thread is about school indoctrination.
How can you separate the two?
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Old January 17th, 2018, 09:18 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Athena View Post
We all have limited time and energy. I wish to focus my time and energy on school indoctrination and the change in public education. Threads are more comprehensive and can actually make a difference when they remain on topic.

Freedom of speech is an important topic and we have a thread for that. This thread is about school indoctrination.
? If one is not allowed to discuss Academic topics inside the context of an Academic environment (due to politically charged motives), how is that not within the realm of "indoctrination" or "miseducation"? You don't view that as highly problematic (to say the least)?

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Old January 17th, 2018, 12:19 PM   #53
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Everything you said about being a church member is good. With great pain I realized the change in education meant I was standing alone with my values, because they were no longer supported by education, and church membership just isn't an option for me. My children were part of the cohort that made news as a national youth crisis. I envy the Christians their support groups. This is also why I write so passionately about the change in education and the harm I believe it has done.

We have a serious problem with our language that is very slanted and limited.

That is not at all how I would define indoctrination because we taught a set of American values, we also had education for critical thinking and independent thinking. I believe education for citizenship is indoctrination, but it means learning a set of concepts and the reasoning for them. Nonchristians are not indoctrinated with the concepts and reasoning of Christians, so when they read the bible they do not interpret it the same way, and they don't see truth but nonsense and some really awful stuff too. Like what is good about a jealous, revengeful, punishing and fearsome god? That is not the god Christians today worship, but in the past, they did fear that god. How we understand the bible is all about indoctrination or lack of indoctrination.

Likewise, our understanding of citizenship is about indoctrination. We had education for good moral judgment based on reason. There is no longer an understanding of that. We had a very highly moral nation with a good understanding of virtues and what this has to do with our liberty and this is no longer true, but Christians are cheering about how the bible was right about the last days. I am so sorry, really I am, but the Christian belief that humans are born in sin, and need to be saved not by education but by a supernatural being, and their belief in our last days, along with no longer transmitting the culture we had is the worst thing that could have happened. We are being sucked back into the dark ages by the change in public education and reliance on Christianity to teach morality, and Christians are celebrating how wonderful it is that bible speaks of the last days. This is destroying our country and could destroy the world. What is happening today is the end of the enlightenment that made us great.

I think we might agree our government is the beast as was the government of Rome, and we would not agree on with this, I see Christianity as manifesting the antiChrist. It is as we believe it, and manifests it. Compared to the enlightenment, Christianity with is negative ideas of humanity and the future takes us out of the light. In India it is understood when we speak of one thing, we also speak of its opposite. When my children came of age, when education for good moral judgment was left to the church, Satanism was very popular. AND NOW CHRISTIANS ARE THRILLED TO BE IN THE LAST DAYS.




Athena, I'm not going to pretend to understand all you posted...because honestly I don't. Apparently, we view things quite differently and have had very different experiences. More than once you have mentioned "the change/harm in education". Sorry, but I have no idea what you mean. I have been retired for a few years, but RIGHT UP until my last day (and I've stayed in touch with my schools and teacher colleagues) I taught what I've always taught: required curriculum, social skills, behavioral norms, appropriate conversation, good citizenship, love of country, appreciation for others and navigating the world around us.
Every day we said the Pledge of Allegiance and/or sang the National Anthem. Every day we read, wrote, discussed, problem solved. Every day we negotiated, compromised, worked and played. Every day we laughed. Some days we cried. Some days we pitched a fit. Some days we made it without scares, worries, family deaths, drugs, abuse, weapons, or after school detentions....and I say "WE" because WE spent day after day together. We worked as a team--teachers, students, parents, administrators--a team.
Every day "we" had extra food available for those who had none. Every day "we" had extra money for those who had none. The team.
For the student with NO coat, we found a coat. For the student with no boots, we found boots.....sweatshirts, gloves, hats or a change of clothes for those who lost control of their bladder....or for a little one who didn't make it to the bathroom on time.
So, when you talk about the "HARM"--in education--I don't get it. When you talk about virtues or morals--lacking in education--I don't get it. The end of enlightenment?? I really don't get THAT either...because ALL I EVER saw was LIGHT--the way my students' eyes lit up when they finally understood a concept--the way my students laughed and teased me---the way my students HELPED others in so many ways--I can't even count them all. The concerts and plays and sports and science fairs and bake sales and field trips---through the years!
I'm sorry. I am really truly sorry that your view is distorted and that your experiences have been negative to the max....but mine weren't.

As far as my Christian faith?? My church does not dwell on the "end of days" or the "anti-Christ" or Satan. We are too busy volunteering, fund-raising, working at the food bank, collecting clothing, gleaning citrus fruit, teaching classes, working on committees, organizing rummage sales, painting the church, repairing the church irrigation system, remodeling/cleaning the kitchen, preparing luncheons/suppers.......on and on. I could literally spend ALL day, every single day at my church and NEVER run out of things to do. There are so many needs and so little time. It's a labor of love.
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Old January 22nd, 2018, 06:15 AM   #54
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No I am not, but I can google them and will.



Bret Weinstein- this is an interesting distinction I judge as worthy of discussion.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/01/o...n-its-own.html
QUOTE]The first instance, he argued, “is a forceful call to consciousness.” The second “is a show of force, and an act of oppression in and of itself.”


Would you be interested in discussing the case of Bret Weinsten as it relates to the current Educational systems here in the USA (and elsewhere, in the West)?
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Old February 24th, 2018, 08:02 AM   #55
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How can you separate the two?
By talking about the purpose of education. The original purpose of education was indoctrination. A priority goal was to prepare everyone for leadership and to prepare everyone for liberty, by teaching a set of American values. This was intentional Americanization of immigrants and if this reasoning was understood, we would accept all illegal children, educated in US schools as US citizens. The only thing that separates us from the rest of the world is our education, not the color of our skin, or where we were born, or where our parents came from. Only today that is less true than in past, because we dropped education for citizenship and replaced it with education for technology that is common to all modern countries. We have prepared our young to be products for industry since 1958, instead of citizens of the US, and the social, political and economic ramifications are really harsh.
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Old February 24th, 2018, 08:40 AM   #56
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Here's the truth.

Teachers are too busy at the gun range (with our training) to indoctrinate students. Please note the copy of the U.S. Constitution on the chalkboard.

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Old February 24th, 2018, 10:01 AM   #57
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[QUOTE=Clara007;1134976]Athena, I'm not going to pretend to understand all you posted...because honestly I don't. Apparently, we view things quite differently and have had very different experiences. More than once you have mentioned "the change/harm in education". Sorry, but I have no idea what you mean. [/qoute]

What I mean is the failure to defend our democracy in the classroom. The shift from liberal education to education for technology for military and industrial purpose.

Quote:
I have been retired for a few years, but RIGHT UP until my last day (and I've stayed in touch with my schools and teacher colleagues) I taught what I've always taught: required curriculum, social skills, behavioral norms, appropriate conversation, good citizenship, love of country, appreciation for others and navigating the world around us.
That is a good list and prehaps I just don't know what I am talking about?
The principles of democracy are? Or what are the characteristics used to describe the ideals and procedures of democracy? What books for teaching American idealism would you recommend?

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Every day we said the Pledge of Allegiance and/or sang the National Anthem.
I think beginning the day with a song is important and I have not heard of this being done.

Quote:
Every day we read, wrote, discussed, problem solved.
Was this tied to American idealism?

Quote:
Every day we negotiated, compromised, worked and played.
This might be common even to the education of our enemies? And then we go to the library and find there no classics because the children will not read them, but everyone loves Captian Underpants, stories of a school principal who runs around in his underpants like a superhero. How respectful is that?

Quote:
Every day we laughed. Some days we cried. Some days we pitched a fit. Some days we made it without scares, worries, family deaths, drugs, abuse, weapons, or after school detentions....and I say "WE" because WE spent day after day together. We worked as a team--teachers, students, parents, administrators--a team.
That is nice. So did the children and teachers who followed Hitler.

Quote:
Every day "we" had extra food available for those who had none. Every day "we" had extra money for those who had none. The team.
For the student with NO coat, we found a coat. For the student with no boots, we found boots.....sweatshirts, gloves, hats or a change of clothes for those who lost control of their bladder....or for a little one who didn't make it to the bathroom on time.
That is nice. Such behavior is universal.

Quote:
So, when you talk about the "HARM"--in education--I don't get it.
The switch from education for independent thinking to groupthink. Giving up the Conceptual Method in favor of the Behaviorist Method and temporarily focusing on memorization rather than logic. The end of transmitting our culture and preparing everyone for a technological society with unknown values. The end of education for good moral judgment and leaving that up to the church. That last one is my idea of the worst possible thing we could have done.

How about taking authority away from teachers and running everything with policies that leave the teacher relatively powerless and overburdened with paperwork and government set requirements?


Quote:
When you talk about virtues or morals--lacking in education--I don't get it.
In your school district are the reading the classics or Captian Underpants? How many high school students do you think can explain virtues and what they have to do with liberty? If you have a good answer to the question, you have a very different school district than I have.


Quote:
The end of enlightenment??
Yes, the enlightenment and what it has to do with modernization and democracy.

Quote:
I really don't get THAT either...because ALL I EVER saw was LIGHT--the way my students' eyes lit up when they finally understood a concept--the way my students laughed and teased me---the way my students HELPED others in so many ways--I can't even count them all.
That is the kind of statement I expected.

Quote:
The concerts and plays and sports and science fairs and bake sales and field trips---through the years! I'm sorry. I am really truly sorry that your view is distorted and that your experiences have been negative to the max....but mine weren't.
Let us wait until I answer your questions and you reply before coming to the judgment that I have a distorted view. Your school district could be very different from mine, and that would not mean I have a distorted view. It would mean our school districts and communities are different. WE ANNOUNCED A NATIONAL YOUTH CRISIS AND NOT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WHAT TO DO WITH UNCONTROLLABLE CHILDREN WHO ARE A RISK TO OTHERS, AND IF WE SHOULD ARM TEACHERS. What do virtues have to do with strength and our liberty? How do we defend our liberty? Do you have a favorite American hero?

Quote:
As far as my Christian faith?? My church does not dwell on the "end of days" or the "anti-Christ" or Satan. We are too busy volunteering, fund-raising, working at the food bank, collecting clothing, gleaning citrus fruit, teaching classes, working on committees, organizing rummage sales, painting the church, repairing the church irrigation system, remodeling/cleaning the kitchen, preparing luncheons/suppers.......on and on. I could literally spend ALL day, every single day at my church and NEVER run out of things to do. There are so many needs and so little time. It's a labor of love.
That is nice and I am glad you are not beaming about the bible being right about the last days, but some Christians are tickled pick about the bible being right, and probably think the teachers should be armed because Satan has been unleashed and things will only keep getting worse. I think Christianity with a liberal education is acceptable, but with education only for technology, it is not. The difference is if people are well educated before reading the bible and if they are concrete thinkers or abstract thinkers.

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Old February 25th, 2018, 02:19 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Athena View Post
By talking about the purpose of education. The original purpose of education was indoctrination. A priority goal was to prepare everyone for leadership and to prepare everyone for liberty, by teaching a set of American values. This was intentional Americanization of immigrants and if this reasoning was understood, we would accept all illegal children, educated in US schools as US citizens. The only thing that separates us from the rest of the world is our education, not the color of our skin, or where we were born, or where our parents came from. Only today that is less true than in past, because we dropped education for citizenship and replaced it with education for technology that is common to all modern countries. We have prepared our young to be products for industry since 1958, instead of citizens of the US, and the social, political and economic ramifications are really harsh.
you have a good point on no longer educating students for being American citizens. Remove the pledge, remove patriotism, no longer teach civics in any detail. I agree with that as being a bigly problem.
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Old February 26th, 2018, 07:02 AM   #59
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Guy, Not all school districts have done that but I think most have. And I think Clara does not understand the importance of the Enlightenment to our democracy because that was never taught in our time. Not in grade school. The recorded reasoning for democracy begins in Athens. Athens didn't have anything like democracy until Socrates time when philosophers started playing with the idea, and their citizen participation in government was modeled after Sparta that stood firmly against the liberty of Athens. Why should we care?

We should care because democracy is about rule by reason and we do not have a good understanding of that. We should care because the US was the Athens of the modern world and Germany was the Sparta of the modern world, and now it is the US that is looking like the Sparta of the new world. IS something wrong with socialism? What do you know of Sparta and Athens?

What I am talking about is understanding the concepts we need to defend our democracy and not be the republic we defended our democracy against. Germany was a Christian Republic when Hitler took charge. What Hitler did was possible because Germany had reactionary politics and the legislator couldn't get anything done, and they needed a strong man who could push through all the bickering to get this done. Obama had great success in bring opposing parties together, until he became president and stepped into a power struggle I don't think he was expecting. To have power today is not about having good reasoning. It is about actually having power and selling one's soul to have it.

What made Americans Americans was public education. That public education would have pleased Thomas Jefferson who devoted his life and fortune to getting education for the masses because he saw that as the only way to have a united and strong democracy. Please check the quotes following my posts, and that Theodore Roosevelt comes in a long line of enlightened people who saw education for good moral judgment as vital to our republic.

Guy, it looks like others have dropped out of the argument. Without people responding to what I desperately want to be known, the discussion is dead. Thank you for your reply. Only if we defend our democracy in the classroom is it defended. Know one saw democracy in the bible, until they were literate in the Greek and Roman classics. Education for technology for military and industrial purpose has high jacked our democracy and it may become as forgotten as Athens.

Googles spell check really sucks for discussing abstract concepts, and attempts to force everything said into concrete language. God, I wish people understood the meaning of what I said. Hail Hitler, his New World Order lives on.
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Old February 26th, 2018, 07:24 AM   #60
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Okay. Hold the phone, Athena. I'm responding to this statement:
Quote:
And I think Clara does not understand the importance of the Enlightenment to our democracy because that was never taught in our time. Not in grade school.
Let's see if this adds up. I'm a teacher for 40 years--all levels--many subject areas. You were not a teacher.....ever?? AND yet you feel justified in stating that "CLARA does not understand the importance of the Enlightenment to our democracy"?? Because that was never taught in our time?

You feel entitled to evaluate MY education, although we (you and I) never attended the same schools, in the same states, taught by the same teachers, using the same curric...but you somehow KNOW what I was taught??

Would you like to reevaluate that statement?? I'm not even going to defend WHAT I taught or how I taught it, but you MIGHT want to look at what is required BY LAW--in every state. You might want to review the required state standards. You might want to research educational mandates. AND...You might want to reconsider your position.
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