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Old January 23rd, 2018, 05:23 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Nwolfe35 View Post
Landing on the moon hasnít effected that many people?

Really?

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/f...n_ApolloFS.pdf
Sure, hey, I like the space program. But almost all modern technology is the result of people freed by a world view originating in the Bible.

The Bible has effected every aspect of human society, not just tech gadgetry.
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Old January 23rd, 2018, 06:24 PM   #52
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The Word & its discontents

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Sure, hey, I like the space program. But almost all modern technology is the result of people freed by a world view originating in the Bible.

The Bible has effected every aspect of human society, not just tech gadgetry.
Yah, the Bible in the West desacralized the World - & so our ancestors didn't have to worry about kami nor spirits of the animals (nor of the waters, rivers, lakes, seas; nor of the air, & so on). In the West, that meant that steam power could be applied to more than automata & toys, for instance. So the UK, with the same circumstances in terms of tech as Imperial China, actually broke through to using internal combustion engines for productive purposes.

The space programs (US & USSR) of course had links to the Nazi Vengeance weapons in WWII, Tsiolkovsky in the USSR, among others. Germany was an odd case in Christianity, between Luther, all the little kingdoms & their lords, the printing press, vernacular literacy, nationalism & the yearning to become a state.

The Bible has not affected every aspect of human society - perhaps in the West, although the overt aspects of that are fading, especially in Europe. Possibly compensated by the surge in Christianity in Africa, S. America, C. America - we'll have to see to what extent Christianity allows itself to be hybridized in order to get along with the pre-existing conditions on the ground, as it were.
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Old January 24th, 2018, 07:14 AM   #53
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What if there was one book that influenced history, language and culture more than any other?

What if that book was not included in any curriculum of public education?

Wouldnít that be stupid?

....wait, .... oh yeah, that is the way it is.
What if that one book served as the template for centuries for the justifications for patriarchy, slavery and other forms of capitalist exploitation, and the moral justification for imperialist adventurers to conquer and enslave the "children of Ham!"

Maybe it's time to bury that book and create something new that will help guide a world on the brink of extinction, because of the excesses proscribed in a book claiming that 'God gave Man dominion over all of Creation.'
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Old January 24th, 2018, 07:18 AM   #54
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Yah, the Bible in the West desacralized the World - & so our ancestors didn't have to worry about kami nor spirits of the animals (nor of the waters, rivers, lakes, seas; nor of the air, & so on). In the West, that meant that steam power could be applied to more than automata & toys, for instance. So the UK, with the same circumstances in terms of tech as Imperial China, actually broke through to using internal combustion engines for productive purposes.

The space programs (US & USSR) of course had links to the Nazi Vengeance weapons in WWII, Tsiolkovsky in the USSR, among others. Germany was an odd case in Christianity, between Luther, all the little kingdoms & their lords, the printing press, vernacular literacy, nationalism & the yearning to become a state.

The Bible has not affected every aspect of human society - perhaps in the West, although the overt aspects of that are fading, especially in Europe. Possibly compensated by the surge in Christianity in Africa, S. America, C. America - we'll have to see to what extent Christianity allows itself to be hybridized in order to get along with the pre-existing conditions on the ground, as it were.
Christianity has so many forms and is so pervasive around the world because of its aggressive proselytizing over the centuries, that it is more likely our collective survival depends on how well it can reverse polarity on that notion of being separate and in control of nature.
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Old January 24th, 2018, 07:48 AM   #55
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So in ancient Rome, we would recognize a republic, governed by law, and not a speck of it influenced by the Bible.

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Well they were, for a while. Then it became a dictatorship. Then Bible believers took over.
I don't think that last is strictly true. Recall that the Roman Catholic Bible was in Latin - the prestige written language in the West for a long time. It was used for statecraft, theology, philosophy, & literate people tended to be literate in Latin. Bible believers is a misnomer, especially early on as Christianity appealed to people who were down & out in society - & who therefore probably couldn't read.

The Church tended to retain access to the Bible (easier when Bibles were produced by hand, by religious scribes, & therefore prohibitively expensive), & there was a tradition that beginning Bible readers needed a teacher or guide to help them along.

Clergy were expected to be familiar with @ least the cycle of Bible readings used throughout the liturgical year - & those accounts were the basis for many sermons, which is how most of the parishioners knew their Bible - until printing presses & the vernacular translations made headway in proto nation-states. The emphasis on the oral tradition for the Bible is appropriate - very early usage was that the documents were scrolls, & the content was chanted, rather than read anyway.
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Old January 24th, 2018, 07:53 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by right to left View Post
What if that one book served as the template for centuries for the justifications for patriarchy, slavery and other forms of capitalist exploitation, and the moral justification for imperialist adventurers to conquer and enslave the "children of Ham!"

Maybe it's time to bury that book and create something new that will help guide a world on the brink of extinction, because of the excesses proscribed in a book claiming that 'God gave Man dominion over all of Creation.'
Those who donít learn from history are destined to repeat it.

Is that what you really want?
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Old January 24th, 2018, 07:56 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goober
So in ancient Rome, we would recognize a republic, governed by law, and not a speck of it influenced by the Bible.



I don't think that last is strictly true. Recall that the Roman Catholic Bible was in Latin - the prestige written language in the West for a long time. It was used for statecraft, theology, philosophy, & literate people tended to be literate in Latin. Bible believers is a misnomer, especially early on as Christianity appealed to people who were down & out in society - & who therefore probably couldn't read.

The Church tended to retain access to the Bible (easier when Bibles were produced by hand, by religious scribes, & therefore prohibitively expensive), & there was a tradition that beginning Bible readers needed a teacher or guide to help them along.

Clergy were expected to be familiar with @ least the cycle of Bible readings used throughout the liturgical year - & those accounts were the basis for many sermons, which is how most of the parishioners knew their Bible - until printing presses & the vernacular translations made headway in proto nation-states. The emphasis on the oral tradition for the Bible is appropriate - very early usage was that the documents were scrolls, & the content was chanted, rather than read anyway.
You say you disagree but then you give evidence that supports my contention.

I said the Bible believers took over and then you describe that the people in charge were literate in and used the Bible.
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Old January 24th, 2018, 08:54 AM   #58
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Yah, we've seen this outfit before. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ...earch_Ministry

"Beliefs[edit]

"CARM is a five-point-Calvinist entity, maintaining itself as a conservative Christian ministry. Its stated aim is to promote and defend Calvinism doctrines and to persuade people to leave and avoid non-Calvinistic points of view, and ultimately to worship Jesus Christ.

"The organization's statement of faith[10] also lays out a number of affirmations widely accepted by non-Calvinistic Christians, such as Biblical infallibility, Christian monotheism, trinitarianism, and the deity of Christ. The organization's founder and president, Matt Slick, describes his beliefs in similar terms, adding that he although he is a five-point Calvinist, he is ecumenical about Christianity.[11]"

&

"Reception[edit]
[relevant? Ė discuss]

"University of Waterloo religious studies assistant professor Douglas E. Cowan states, "Like the Countercult in print, the Countercult on the Net is a carefully managed presentation of selected truths, half-truths, spun truths, and untruths. Its library is designed not to inform the visitor about the group in question, but to confirm for the visitor why that group is heterodox, why it should be avoided, and why conservative Christianity is the only viable option in place of it. As well, again like the Countercult in print, the Countercult on the Net is intended as an 'equipping force' to supply Christians with apologetic resources for their own encounters with NRM members. Rather than a public library, it is rather like those few shelves of a conservative seminary library that are devoted to 'Cults and Other World Religions.' The difference, of course, is that this library is open to the public."[12] He cites CARM as an "example of the library function-and its inherent problems" with the questionable accuracy of information presented about new religious movements on the Internet.[12] Cowan comments that CARM "cleaves fairly close to the Countercult party line" and expresses a concern that "unless one looks specifically for Slick's personal information, CARM's web presentation could easily deceive a visitor into thinking it is a multi-staff, professional research organization."[12] Slick issued a written response to Cowan's article.[13] In his book Bearing false witness? An introduction to the Christian countercult, Cowan says that "Slick's choice of cultic and sectarian movements is interesting", commenting that it is rare to see Christadelphianism described as a major cult, or to see such different movements as Eckankar and Christian Identity listed adjacent to each other.[3]

"In his 2007 book Teaching New Religious Movements, Virginia Commonwealth University sociology and religious studies professor David G. Bromley describes the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry as a "countermovement site" and representative of "the evangelical Christian counter-cult".[14] Bromley notes, "though the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry (www.carm.org) is a very impressive counter-cult Web site, it is by and large the sole project of one man with a Master of Divinity degree. This is not to say, of course, that nothing on the site is credible or useful, merely that it ought not to be confused with information offered by those more academically prepared for the task of discussing new religious movements."[14] In her book Voices of Diversity: Multi-Culturalism in America, Mary C. Sengstock, a sociologist from Wayne State University, describes the CARM website as one of those continuing a tradition of religious prejudice, because it puts forward the view that Roman Catholics are not Christians.[15] Sengstock cites Slick's essay "Are Roman Catholics Christian?"[15][16]"

(My emphasis - more @ the URL)

It's one guy - & subject to his oracular pronouncements @ that. No thanks.
Manuscript Evidence for the Bible (by Ron Rhodes)
Manuscript Evidence for the Bible: An Outline - Faith Facts
The Manuscripts | The Institute for Creation Research
Facts for Skeptics of the New Testament - Christian Research Institute
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Old January 24th, 2018, 09:32 AM   #59
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It's a big topic

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Originally Posted by webguy4 View Post
You say you disagree but then you give evidence that supports my contention.

I said the Bible believers took over and then you describe that the people in charge were literate in and used the Bible.
No, the parishioners in the pews weren't Bible believers, they put their trust in their priest & the theology of the Church (if they thought about the latter.) The Bishops & Curia were likely literate in Latin, or @ least had scribes who were. The priests had to be familiar with the liturgical readings, & be able to write (or possibly merely declaim - I'd have to look) their sermons. That's not the same as the priests being literate in Latin.

Bible believers is a tough phrase anyway. The Roman Catholic Church's take was that the Bible contained history, poetry, genealogies, theology, stories, mythos - & that it consequently took a disciplined approach & training & familiarity with the material, cultures, the theological ins & outs of Judaism to understand.

Bible believers as the phrase is usually used in the US is quite recent. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_inerrancy

"Biblical inerrancy, as formulated in the "Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy", is the doctrine that the Protestant Bible "is without error or fault in all its teaching";[1] or, at least, that "Scripture in the original manuscripts does not affirm anything that is contrary to fact".[2]

"A formal statement in favor of biblical inerrancy was published in the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society in 1978.[3] The signatories to the "Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy" admit that "inspiration, strictly speaking, applies only to the autographic text of Scripture". However, even though there may be no extant original manuscripts of the Bible, those which exist can be considered inerrant, because, as the statement reads: "the autographic text of Scripture, ... in the providence of God can be ascertained from available manuscripts with great accuracy".[4]

"Some equate inerrancy with infallibility; others do not.[5][6] Biblical inerrancy should not be confused with biblical literalism."

(My emphasis - more @ the URL)

Interesting that Truth can be denominational.
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Old January 24th, 2018, 10:27 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by hoosier88 View Post
No, the parishioners in the pews weren't Bible believers, they put their trust in their priest & the theology of the Church (if they thought about the latter.) The Bishops & Curia were likely literate in Latin, or @ least had scribes who were. The priests had to be familiar with the liturgical readings, & be able to write (or possibly merely declaim - I'd have to look) their sermons. That's not the same as the priests being literate in Latin.

Bible believers is a tough phrase anyway. The Roman Catholic Church's take was that the Bible contained history, poetry, genealogies, theology, stories, mythos - & that it consequently took a disciplined approach & training & familiarity with the material, cultures, the theological ins & outs of Judaism to understand.

Bible believers as the phrase is usually used in the US is quite recent. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_inerrancy

"Biblical inerrancy, as formulated in the "Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy", is the doctrine that the Protestant Bible "is without error or fault in all its teaching";[1] or, at least, that "Scripture in the original manuscripts does not affirm anything that is contrary to fact".[2]

"A formal statement in favor of biblical inerrancy was published in the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society in 1978.[3] The signatories to the "Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy" admit that "inspiration, strictly speaking, applies only to the autographic text of Scripture". However, even though there may be no extant original manuscripts of the Bible, those which exist can be considered inerrant, because, as the statement reads: "the autographic text of Scripture, ... in the providence of God can be ascertained from available manuscripts with great accuracy".[4]

"Some equate inerrancy with infallibility; others do not.[5][6] Biblical inerrancy should not be confused with biblical literalism."

(My emphasis - more @ the URL)

Interesting that Truth can be denominational.
Parishioners in the pews May or may not have been Bible believers, but they were not in charge. People in charge based their authority on the Bible. You have failed to contest my post.
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