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Old March 2nd, 2018, 12:00 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Lyzza View Post
Sorry to say this, but get used to it when trying to talk to that one......

Soon you might just start getting your name placed in her posts in other threads about totally different topics. Just to drag your name in the mud i guess.

Buckle up buttercup
You spoke abusively to me and if you don't want others knowing it, don't do it. As for your take on feminism, no man has spoken worse to me, and because many women do talk like you, I have preferred the company of men who do not. I am interested in intellectual discussions, not cat fights.
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Old March 2nd, 2018, 12:06 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Athena View Post
You spoke abusively to me and if you don't want others knowing it, don't do it. As for your take on feminism, no man has spoken worse to me, and because many women do talk like you, I have preferred the company of men who do not. I am interested in intellectual discussions, not cat fights.
So do i, and where we are different is i dont have a problem with you personally at all. You seem to have one with me tho, and whatever....

I have only taken issue with the things you have posted without any credible evidence to support them ---> which only makes them your opinions. I do not agree with those opinions and i am not alone, in the "real world" or even here at DTT.

Nobody will be agreeing with everyone here, thats for sure! However, if you have a personal problem please take it to PM, or just get a grip....
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Old March 2nd, 2018, 02:14 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by RNG View Post
You have shown no "facts" and in fact no evidence that the 1958 act affected such a change other than the opinion of several authors.

Saying it again and again does not make it so.

You keep referring to facts but I see none.
There was no vocational education before 1917 and this was changed for national defense reasons. From the beginning of free public education we were transmitting a culture and Sinclear's argument is clearly about how that focus on education is wrong. In 1917 it was agreed adding vocational training was a good idea. However, we continued the previous education because we saw our national defense as dependent on patriotic citizens. In 1958 Eiserhower praised that domestic education and he requested the National Defense Education Act be passed. At that time, we totally replaced the old education with education for a technological society with unknown values. Thomas Jefferson and Theodore Roosevelt would disapprove this change in education, because that is not the education that can make our republic strong and united. Given the national defense urgency everyone could agree on 4 year change in education, but the change didn't end in four years.

The 1958 change was made because our past national defense depended on patriotic citizens who understood our democracy and why it must be defended, but in 1958 Sputnik demanded we do everything we can to advance technology as rapidly as possible. Our national defense went from depending on patriotic citizens to depending on technology. If you do not understand the facts I have provided, and no one post here who does the understand the facts, or at least is sincere about wanting information, this will be my last post to this thread.

One last thing, with the National Defense Education Act came testing students IQ so teachers could better select out those best suited for higher education. In a short time all of education has been focused on those headed for college, depriving all others of the education best suited for them. And how we judged and value people has totally changed. It is no longer character that matters most. In 1980 it was popular to say "teachers should not have to waste their time on poor students". That is education for technology. It is not education for citizenship, helping every child discover his/her interest and talents.

I can provide facts to back everything I say, but it is waste to provide them to someone who ignores them.
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Old March 2nd, 2018, 02:22 PM   #14
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What vocational training was suddenly introduced in 1917 that hadn't been there previously?

What is wrong with streaming the kids to outcomes that are both more achievable and therefore hopefully more enjoyable for them?

What exactly did the 1958 act change? You give them broad brush descriptions but I still don't see your objection.
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Old March 3rd, 2018, 04:34 AM   #15
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I think I should quote from "Introduction to the Philosophy of Education" before I give up. The book explains there are different forms of knowledge. I think it should be made clear, knowing a list of facts is one form of knowledge, and without knowledge of the meaning of those facts, it is not very valuable knowledge. Without life experience, it is unlikely a person will understand the meaning of the facts. Meaning general comes with age and maturity. Age 30 was considered still youth and science supports the idea that age 18 should not be considered adulthood.

There is also understanding concepts and we used the Conceptual Method of education before focusing on technology. Facts are not so important when using the Conceptual Method. Teachers were advised to overlook technological correctness and just pay attention to if the child understood the concept. This education encourages disagreeing but being able to work together and that leads to a different kind of politics than what we have today. Education for technology evidently leads to reactionary politics as this destroyed Germany, and appears to be destroying the US now.

Then there is also the philosophy of education that makes a huge difference. Our past was built on the Greek and Roman classics, and our education was modeled after Athens education for well-rounded individual growth. We believed in equality but this did not mean being the same. We accepted being as different as the gods, each one with his/her own purpose and own life style. Education covered literature and the arts with a focus on reading, speaking and writing as these skills are essential to self government.

Most important is the education for good moral judgment that is essential to liberty.

Quote:
"Realist agree with idealist that fundamental values are basically permanent, but they differ among themselves in their reasons for thinking so. Classical realist (that is me) agree with Aristotle that there is a universal moral law, available to reason, that is binding on all of us as rational beings....
Realists agree that teachers should impart certain defined values."
Realists agree that teachers should impart certain defined values..."
The scientific realist teaches that right and wrong come from our understanding of nature and not from religious principles.
John Dewey was the most influential in changing our education and Christians hated him, because he was a pragmatist.

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For the pragmatist, values are relative. Ethical and moral canons are not permanent but must alter as cultures and societies change.
That seems to leading to the end of our liberty. Without moral agreement, we are becoming increasingly dependent on rule by law. Anything that is not illegal is okay. Furthermore, just because it is law, that doesn't make it right, just don't get caught. It also needs to be said we have replaced classical philosophy with German philosophy. This is a serious change.

We have a technological society with unknown values. We have people who demand facts but do not understand concepts. Christians are thrilled that the Bible is right about the end of times. We have an amoral society and that is not good for liberty and justice with wisdom. as it becomes a police state and the justice of revenge, and reactionary politics. This is the end of the democracy with liberty we inherited unless we understand what education has to do with defending our democracy and return to it.
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Old March 3rd, 2018, 05:02 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by RNG View Post
What vocational training was suddenly introduced in 1917 that hadn't been there previously?
Okay, here is a definition of vocational skills

Quote:
vocational. Of or relating to a vocation or vocations: vocational counseling. Relating to, providing, or undergoing training in a special skill to be pursued in a trade: vocational students learning to operate a lathe.
Before 1917 schools did not teach vocational skills. They learned only reading, writing and arithmetic with a focus on good speaking skills, because in a democracy those skills are very important. We need to be well informed and able to argue our point.

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What is wrong with streaming the kids to outcomes that are both more achievable and therefore hopefully more enjoyable for them?
Are you speaking in favor of thinking of children as products to prepare for industry. What do you mean by streaming children and who should have the authority to do that? I might be overreacting but you seem to be talking about something that is a complete nightmare to me.

Quote:
What exactly did the 1958 act change? You give them broad brush descriptions but I still don't see your objection.
It totally replaced liberal education (our domestic education) with education for technology. The addition of vocational training in 1917 was a wonderful thing. It made education the path to upward economic mobility and did more to relieve poverty than anything else could. But it retained the old classical education. The complete shift to education for technology is destroying our democracy and leading to so much human suffering and out of control social and political problems.

I woke shortly after 4:00 AM thinking I had to attempt quoting from one more book. The change in education happened over a long period of time and John Dewey was an important part of that change. I am in favor of pragmatism, but not for the young. What I put in the post before this one explains what I think is important. I think children should learn logic and concepts and universal truths and that we continue to think of them as youths until at least 30 years of age. Now I am going back to bed and hope I get a couple more sleeps.
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