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Old February 26th, 2018, 08:53 AM   #1
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Attn: Athena - The 1958 National Defense Education Act

Quite a few times you have posted statements similar to this quote from one of your posts recently:

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Originally Posted by Athena
... I think nothing is more important than transmitting the culture we had before the 1958 National Defense Education Act completely replaced lower grade liberal education with education for technology for military and industrial purpose. ...
I did a bit of a search of National Defense Education Act and didn't see anything particularly nefarious in it.

And as to putting a greater emphasis on technology, that IMO was brilliant. Even then despite the fact it was pre-widespread use of computers, STEM was a needed element of both education and society.

You have made the categorical statement represented in the quote above many times but I really haven't seen you justify it or show any back-up.
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Old February 27th, 2018, 09:31 AM   #2
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I wish people could read the books in my library and then we could talk. We all know the good reasons for education for technology for military and industrial purpose, and for sure many really good things have come from that education, from women's liberation, a stronger stand against racism; to the computer and internet. What is not known is what is in the old books, and why we radically changed education when we mobilized for the first world war, but maintained education for citizenship until 1958. In general, people are unaware of the changes and the ramifications of those changes, which are both bad and good. If people really do care, I would love to quote from these books so we can work with the same information, and instead of questioning me as though I am only writing my opinion, everyone can address what is in the books.

One of the books I consider the most important is online. It is warning the world that Germany was preparing for the first world war and it was ignored until that war did occur. It is Charles Sarolea's "The Anglo-German Problem". When I first looked online for it, it was not there, but today paperback copies are available and it is online.
Quote:
The Anglo-German Problem by Charles Sarolea, 1912 | Online ...
https://www.questia.com/library/3918...german-problem
Read the full-text online edition of The Anglo-German Problem (1912).
I think every high school student should read Tocqueville's "Democracy in America" and "The Anlgo-German Problem" because it was what has been done to our social order and the organization of government bureaucracy that is important. Aldous Huxley wrote, "In the past, personal and political liberty depended to a considerable extent upon government inefficiency. The spirit of tyranny was always more than willing; but its organization and material equipment were generally weak. Progressive science and technology have changed all this completely" That was said long before the computer advancements we have today and the advanced mathematical capability of predicting the future with more accuracy than ever before possible.

"Democracy in America" is also online.
Quote:
Democracy in America — Volume 1 by Alexis de Tocqueville - Free ...
Gutenberg › 56,580 free ebooks › 11 by Alexis de Tocqueville
Jan 21, 2006 - Free kindle book and epub digitized and proofread by Project Gutenberg.
Quote:
“Having thus taken each citizen in turn in its powerful embrace and shaped him to its will, government then extends its embrace to include the whole of society. It covers the whole of social life with a network of petty, complicated rules that are both minute and uniform … . It does not break men’s will, but softens, bends, and guides it; it seldom enjoins, but often inhibits, actions; it does not destroy anything, but prevents much being born; it is not at all tyrannical, but it hinders, restrains, enervates, stifles, and stultifies so much that in the end each nation is no more than a flock of timid and hardworking animals with the government as its shepherd.”
Germany was organized by Prussian military bureaucratic order and the US has adopted this making the despot of which Tocqueville wrote a reality. That would not have been so bad, if we didn't also replace our "domestic education" with the model of Germany's education for technology, for military and industrial purpose. Now our democracy and liberty are no longer defended and we have reactionary politics as Germany did. And, and, there is so much to talk about if people really care. And this really is not about my judgment because I do not know what is best. It is about your awareness and your power to control what happens or your complete lack of power because you don't know the decisions being made without your consent.

Education of young for a technological society with unknown values, was never something we discussed and voted for. It was just done and this radical change in education had a 4 year limit, but we never went back to the domestic (liberal) education we had. We are now what we defended our democracy against.

Last edited by Athena; February 27th, 2018 at 09:40 AM.
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Old February 27th, 2018, 10:15 AM   #3
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Your two books are just opinions of those authors.

From the outside looking in, the only complaint I have about US education is that it ignores the rest of the world, including the history of England and France that were a big part of why the US is now an independent country.

But we too have out blind spots. In Canadian schools, we get a lot of European history but very little about Asia.

What specifically changed in 1958? From my reading, the act you so berate just emphasised education in general.

I don't see it being any great governmental drive to militarize the education system.
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Old February 28th, 2018, 05:36 AM   #4
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Well, you got my morning off with a good strong laugh. How many times did you read those books, before coming to that conclusion?

Now that the laugh is over, I am very disappointed. Did you notice I said the change in education goes with a bureaucratic change and a change in our social order and economics and a serious political problem has emerged?

Let's see if I can improve my response to you. The general public has zero understanding of the Military Industrial Complex. That is why I asked people to pay attention to what Charles Sarolea said. Perhaps this explanation will help.

Public education is like a genii in a bottle. The defined purpose is the wish and the students are the genii. We changed that wish in 1958 and there are huge social, economic and political ramifications. This change is the result of WWII military technology, and especally Sputnik that showed the world the USSR not only had nuclear technology, but also the technology to delieve a nuclear bomb anywhere in the US. Our national defense focus shifted from having patriotic citzens who understand our democracy and why it must be defended to reliance on technology.

I will give you another quote with the hope you understand it is only an opinion, but an opinion with huge ramifications.

"The German military organization is the world's model, at least from the standpoint of immediate accomplishment of results, and therefore we can hardly do better than to emulate it in its perfect working. It was effected in its minutest detail by the very essence of scientific thought and application. We have seen how the Kaiser's marvelous soldiers carried their banner to the very outskirts of Paris in August and September, 1914. It is the Great God efficiency, to which the Germans were required to pay homage of worship- and it behooves us either to effect a thing that will operate as well or to copy theirs. The fact of a world at war has silenct the erring lips that declared against the necessity for preparation against disaster, like that of Belgium and Serva."

That comes from the 1917 National Education Association Converence. J.A.B. Sinclair's speech is titled "WAR IS A HIGHLY ORGANIZED SCIENCE-THE SOLDIER AND INDUSTRIAL WORKER BOTH NEED TRAINING IN SCIENTIFIC THINKING AND APPLICATION". If you explored Charles Sarolea's book, and knew the history of Germany, you would know he is talking about the Prusian control of Germany and what Eisenhower called the Military Industry Complex, but what Hitler and Bush called the New World Order. That was the first time we added vocational training to our education. We had to scramble because the first world war required to so much technological knowledge from knowing how to type to knowing basic engining and mechanical skills and the US was totally unprepared for that! Education was about literature, not technology. This is such an important point, I will repeat it. When we mobilized for the first world war it was the first time we had vocational training.

We retained education for democracy and citizenship because our main national defense focus was on patriotism. Public education was used to mobilize us for WWI and WWII, not only with vocational training, but most important, being sure everyone knew what makes our democracy different and why it must be defended. That education came to an end in 1958.

Our National Pension Plan, Social Security, would not be possible without adopting the German model of bureaucracy. We had a radical change in the bureaucracy of the federal government when Franklin Roosevelt was in office. Numbering people is helpful when you have conscription and you need to know the number of fighting age men and women who have for fighting. We should be talking about this change in bureaucracy along with the change in education. If we are to understand our changed reality and the direction we are going, we need to discuss both the change in bureaucratic order and education. Moving from a nation with liberty to an authoritarian state requires understanding the relationship between education and bureaucracy.

Too bad you didn't think what Tocqueville said is important because it is very important.

Last edited by Athena; February 28th, 2018 at 07:51 AM.
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Old February 28th, 2018, 09:47 AM   #5
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Those are still opinions and opinions I don't agree with.

STEM are important. Civics are important.

It wasn't any federal intervention that has changed emphasis. In fact, Common Core just monitored English and math, equally. Noble ventures IMO.
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Old March 1st, 2018, 06:15 AM   #6
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I am not sure you know enough to disagree with me?

When Eisenhower asked Congress to pass the National Defense Education Act, he praised our "domestic education" but explained the emergency that made the National Defense Education Act necessary. That act was limited to 4 years, and we never did return to the "domestic education" we had. The change did not end in 4 years. How could you argue the National Defense Education Act was not a federal action that changed education? What I am saying is not an opinion but the fact of what happened, and disagreeing with that is like stepping out in the rain and claiming it is not raining.

You said nothing about the relationship between education and bureaucracy. In the past things were not run by policies, but by individuals hired because their judgment was trusted and everyone did the job as s/he decided to do the job. No policy setting the limits of the job. A big problem with this is when the person died, the new person would not do the same job in the same way, and the whole organization would have to adjust to the new person. When that was our reality, it was very important to educate everyone for good judgment and getting along with each other.

Education for technology is different. Learning to be technically correct is different from education for good judgment. I will give you another quote from the 1917 National Education Association Conference... Education for good judgment is vital to democracy, and here is Sara H. Fahey, "HOW THE PUBLIC SCHOOL CAN FOSTER THE AMERICAN IDEAL OF PATRIOTISM"

Quote:
In taking an inventory of the nation's strength, we must remember that the greatest resource of any nation is, not its mines, its quarries, its forest, and its fisheries, but rather its people and particularly its children-its future citizens-and they are the material with which the school deals. This fact has made tyrants everywhere dread the free school. They know that it is the one weapon of democracy against the tyranny of the mob, or of the arbitrary ruler.
We have reactionary government and mob rule because we stopped educating for independent thinking and good judgment and teaching the democratic principles. Also, going by the letter of the law is a form or tyranny and our technological soceity has embraced going by the letter of the law as technologically correct. And in this quote, Sara is quoting Tagore to make a point about Germany bureaucratic order that we have since adopted.

Quote:
"Whatever their efficiency, such great organizations are so impersonal that they bare down on the individual lives of the people like a hydraulic press whose action is completely impersonal and therefore completely effective in crushing out individual liberty and power.
The great organization is Prussian military bureaucracy applied to citizens and we have replaced our bureaucratic order with the Prussian one. Now everything is run by written policy, not individual judgment. Instead of independent leaders, we have people who obey policy. Trump is not so obedient, but the rest of our bureaucracies from the federal government to the local hospital, is run by Prussian military bureaucracy applied to citizens. Even our dentist, doctors, and nurses are functioning like workers on an assembly line doing what they are told, rather than having personaly power and authority over how they do their jobs. You may see nothing wrong with this, but to me this is horrifying. Even highly educated people are being crushed and have lost personal power and authority. Ignoring Tocqueville is not an intelligent choice.

Last edited by Athena; March 1st, 2018 at 07:41 AM.
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Old March 1st, 2018, 09:29 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Athena View Post
<snip>

How could you argue the National Defense Education Act was not a federal action that changed education?

<snip>
I am not saying, nor have ever said that the NDEA wasn't a federal action, nor that it didn't change education. Nice strawman building.

But I don't agree that it was a nefarious change.

IMO, from my readings on economics and society, its attempt to start standardizing things was a positive.

As to the rest of your post, again, it's a mix if your and other people's opinion.

Not directly in this post but in other related ones, you have repeatedly referred to "facts". Let's hear some.
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Old March 2nd, 2018, 08:42 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RNG View Post
Those are still opinions and opinions I don't agree with.

STEM are important. Civics are important.

It wasn't any federal intervention that has changed emphasis. In fact, Common Core just monitored English and math, equally. Noble ventures IMO.
Core comes 50 years after the 1958 change in education. And you either are not reading what I write and the quotes or you are not understanding the reason for that change in public education is national defense. Public education was changed for national defense reasons in 1917 and again in 1958. The change in 1917 had many good ramifications. The change in 1958 has had good and bad ramifications.

My opinions about all this are uncertain. My opinions are more like asking if I should add more salt to the soup, than having an unquestioned opinion. We can't even discuss my opinions them until the facts are established. Not only was education changed for national defense reasons, but the idea of what is important to our national defense changed. Between 1917 and 1958 we transmitted a culture. whoops got to run...
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Old March 2nd, 2018, 08:44 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Athena View Post
Core comes 50 years after the 1958 change in education. And you either are not reading what I write and the quotes or you are not understanding the reason for that change in public education is national defense. Public education was changed for national defense reasons in 1917 and again in 1958. The change in 1917 had many good ramifications. The change in 1958 has had good and bad ramifications.

My opinions about all this are uncertain. My opinions are more like asking if I should add more salt to the soup, than having an unquestioned opinion. We can't even discuss my opinions them until the facts are established. Not only was education changed for national defense reasons, but the idea of what is important to our national defense changed. Between 1917 and 1958 we transmitted a culture. whoops got to run...
You have shown no "facts" and in fact no evidence that the 1958 act affected such a change other than the opinion of several authors.

Saying it again and again does not make it so.

You keep referring to facts but I see none.
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Old March 2nd, 2018, 10:27 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RNG View Post
You have shown no "facts" and in fact no evidence that the 1958 act affected such a change other than the opinion of several authors.

Saying it again and again does not make it so.

You keep referring to facts but I see none.
Sorry to say this, but get used to it when trying to talk to that one......

Soon you might just start getting your name placed in her posts in other threads about totally different topics. Just to drag your name in the mud i guess.

Buckle up buttercup
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