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Old April 3rd, 2018, 07:59 PM   #11
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Not actual decreases but raises in salary. So what? This chart is propaganda. Teacher's salaries and more importantly their pensions did not decrease during the stock market crash of 08. My income took a big hit then. My 401k took a hit then. Teacher pensions are tearing this country apart. Chicago is going to go belly up in large part due to it.
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Old April 3rd, 2018, 08:03 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by guy39 View Post
Sure there is slackers, but ironically tenure is demanded.
It must be earned. On average, teachers work for three or more years without tenure. During that time they are evaluated annually, and at any time they may be fired.

Even after they are tenured they can be fired for "just cause." I've seen it happen.

The other side of tenure:
Supporters of tenure argue that tenure is necessary in making education systems successful. Tenure protects teachers and allows them to participate in unfavorable activities. For example, teachers are able to fail poorly performing students regardless of how influential they are to the school. Supporters also assert it protects teachers' freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is especially important when teachers write articles on issues which their administrators may not be in favor of.

Those in favor of keeping tenure also argue that teachers are fired easily when they commit serious crimes or are ineffective. Supporters of the tenure system say tenure is not keeping teachers who would commit such crimes in the system. In some states, schools are required to pay more to teachers who have earned higher degrees, and tenure allows teachers to secure a job, go back to school, and return to their jobs, not fearing dismissal because of their higher pay grade. Supporters liken tenure to the concept of seniority in other jobs. Teachers are often forced into uncomfortable situations (such as failing students, choosing certain students). An employee who makes decisions of a difficult and confrontational nature would thus require job protection.

Many who are against the motion of reforming/eliminating tenure argue that tenure allows teaching to become a profession rather than just a job. Presumably, teachers would not have as much job stability and would be forced to transfer from school to school. Giving teachers permanent positions would allow them to form bonds and relationships with students, parents, and other faculty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teache...(United_States)
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Old April 3rd, 2018, 08:06 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by justoneman View Post
Not actual decreases but raises in salary. So what? This chart is propaganda. Teacher's salaries and more importantly their pensions did not decrease during the stock market crash of 08. My income took a big hit then. My 401k took a hit then. Teacher pensions are tearing this country apart. Chicago is going to go belly up in large part due to it.
Teachers shouldn't have pensions???
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Old April 3rd, 2018, 08:14 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
You know that "principle" that a high-paid medical profession is a good idea because good salaries attach the best talent?

Funny how the people who defend high-priced medicine don't apply this principle to the teaching profession, but then all they do is teach our children, nothing very important..........

Carry on....
@imaginethat

Have you considered that I am viewing this from a different angle than the one you took? I have discussed this at some length on DTT elsewhere and previously (though I still have a lot more to say on the topic), so I will just present a condensed version here. Though, if you were familiar with my previous posts, you would understand your response is orthogonal to the point I am making.

First, note it is important for us to distinguish between what is & is not (or, at least, may not) be the individual teachers fault. That is, there is a centralized administration that has ultimate authority over the curriculum--and they most certainly do not want a 'hot-shot' tampering with their system; as is displayed beautifully in the movie "The Dead Poet's Society". Then, in many ways, if the teacher(s) are to keep their job, then they have to 'tow the line', by design--those who deviate will quickly be replaced.

Now, what is wrong with the school curriculum, environment, etc. you may ask. The answer is several-fold: (A) The Authority Structure (B ) Copy-Paste method of learning (C) The Curriculum itself (D) Lack of Appropriate Qualifications

There is a lot to talk about here, and it would quickly become a much longer essay then I intend to pursue (at the moment), so let us zoom in on (C) a bit, which I will briefly touch upon.

Now, put simply, and to make the matter clear--if a person is under the impression that the Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Physical Education, Geology, etc. etc. education in the k-12 system is "solid" or even "sensible", is simply extremely uneducated in the subjects--to the point of nearly vacuous. Further, this generalizes across the board. To shorten this process, do not take my word for it, here are some experts in their respective fields discussing k-12 education (in their topic, or generally) [Of course, there is going to be quite a bit of overlap with A, B, D]:

(A) Michio Kaku, prominent Theoretical Physicist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9yUXVzs0Qw

(B ) Walter Lewin, famous MIT Physicist: "Teachers who make Physics boring are criminals!" -Walter Lewin


(C) Edward Frenkel, prominent UC Berkely Mathematician: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbJwwGXQfNs

He wrote a book about this topic titled "Love and Math" [Side Note: met him in person, cool guy]

(D) Richard Dawkins, famous Oxford Biologist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNhtbmXzIaM

(E) Alice Roberts, prominent Anthropologist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LvcOcv9wcA

(F) Richard Feynman, Famous Nobel Prize Physicist: Corruption in textbook-adoption proceedings: 'Judging Books by Their Covers'

(G) Neil Tyson, Prominent AstroPhysicist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKTgpC5QNII

(H) Noam Chomsky, MIT Linguist, political commentator:

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFf6_0T2ZoI
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVqMAlgAnlo

(I) Brian Greene, prominent String Theorist:

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LECig33-6s
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us1i9nkDRCw
3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiWjYoRVO7A

I can seriously go on and on and on (and likely will at a later point) for any (legitimate) subject--but this should be a fair start to hold an honest conversation from.
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Last edited by xMathFanx; April 3rd, 2018 at 08:19 PM.
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Old April 3rd, 2018, 09:00 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by RNG View Post
Clara has often made a claim that teacher's salaries are eroding. Well, here's some data on it.

If you go to the link, the graph is in fact interactive, as you put the cursor on each arrow you get hard numbers.



https://www.axios.com/oklahoma-teach...4e7d53828.html
It is unfortunate that teachers are salaried because they get no overtime pay. Make teachers punch the clock like most of us, and for that matter make students punch the clock. Make them all slaves of the clock.

edit: No help from the Department of Labor for salaried teachers because the DOL is for wage earners.

Last edited by Twisted Sister; April 3rd, 2018 at 09:16 PM.
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Old April 3rd, 2018, 09:28 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by xMathFanx View Post
@imaginethat

Have you considered that I am viewing this from a different angle than the one you took? I have discussed this at some length on DTT elsewhere and previously (though I still have a lot more to say on the topic), so I will just present a condensed version here. Though, if you were familiar with my previous posts, you would understand your response is orthogonal to the point I am making.

First, note it is important for us to distinguish between what is & is not (or, at least, may not) be the individual teachers fault. That is, there is a centralized administration that has ultimate authority over the curriculum--and they most certainly do not want a 'hot-shot' tampering with their system; as is displayed beautifully in the movie "The Dead Poet's Society". Then, in many ways, if the teacher(s) are to keep their job, then they have to 'tow the line', by design--those who deviate will quickly be replaced.

Now, what is wrong with the school curriculum, environment, etc. you may ask. The answer is several-fold: (A) The Authority Structure (B ) Copy-Paste method of learning (C) The Curriculum itself (D) Lack of Appropriate Qualifications

There is a lot to talk about here, and it would quickly become a much longer essay then I intend to pursue (at the moment), so let us zoom in on (C) a bit, which I will briefly touch upon.

Now, put simply, and to make the matter clear--if a person is under the impression that the Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Physical Education, Geology, etc. etc. education in the k-12 system is "solid" or even "sensible", is simply extremely uneducated in the subjects--to the point of nearly vacuous. Further, this generalizes across the board. To shorten this process, do not take my word for it, here are some experts in their respective fields discussing k-12 education (in their topic, or generally) [Of course, there is going to be quite a bit of overlap with A, B, D]:

(A) Michio Kaku, prominent Theoretical Physicist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9yUXVzs0Qw

(B ) Walter Lewin, famous MIT Physicist: "Teachers who make Physics boring are criminals!" -Walter Lewin


(C) Edward Frenkel, prominent UC Berkely Mathematician: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbJwwGXQfNs

He wrote a book about this topic titled "Love and Math" [Side Note: met him in person, cool guy]

(D) Richard Dawkins, famous Oxford Biologist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNhtbmXzIaM

(E) Alice Roberts, prominent Anthropologist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LvcOcv9wcA

(F) Richard Feynman, Famous Nobel Prize Physicist: Corruption in textbook-adoption proceedings: 'Judging Books by Their Covers'

(G) Neil Tyson, Prominent AstroPhysicist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKTgpC5QNII

(H) Noam Chomsky, MIT Linguist, political commentator:

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFf6_0T2ZoI
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVqMAlgAnlo

(I) Brian Greene, prominent String Theorist:

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LECig33-6s
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us1i9nkDRCw
3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiWjYoRVO7A

I can seriously go on and on and on (and likely will at a later point) for any (legitimate) subject--but this should be a fair start to hold an honest conversation from.
About what, specifically? Try to respond concisely and without flooding me with more links than I ever will or should review, if discussion is your aim.
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Old April 3rd, 2018, 09:46 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
About what, specifically? Try to respond concisely and without flooding me with more links than I ever will or should review, if discussion is your aim.
Modus curricula is the key.

Last edited by Twisted Sister; April 3rd, 2018 at 09:52 PM.
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Old April 3rd, 2018, 10:18 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
You know that "principle" that a high-paid medical profession is a good idea because good salaries attach the best talent?

Funny how the people who defend high-priced medicine don't apply this principle to the teaching profession, but then all they do is teach our children, nothing very important..........

Carry on....
If their jobs were merit based pay i would support that 100% as it stands their pay is extracted from the public against our will, once they get tenured they are basically unfireable. Then you get into unions, the bloat in administration. So on and so forth.

Release the states death grip from the education system and maybe it will not only attract higher quality people but demand higher pay. As it stands they are government workers.
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Old April 3rd, 2018, 10:25 PM   #19
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Teachers shouldn't have pensions???
Nope. Along w/ everyone else in the public sector. Why should the taxpayers pay for all of their retirements?
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Old April 3rd, 2018, 10:39 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Sabcat View Post
Nope. Along w/ everyone else in the public sector. Why should the taxpayers pay for all of their retirements?
I agree wholeheartily, no money from the private sector to pay their lavish pensions. Get an on line Masters Degree and the teacher's pension skyrockets.

edit: My sister got an online Masters Degree and she cannot write proper English.
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Last edited by Twisted Sister; April 3rd, 2018 at 10:53 PM.
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