Political Forums  

Go Back   Defending The Truth Political Forum > Political Issues > Education

Education Educational System Forum - For topics and discussions about the educational system


Thanks Tree70Thanks
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old April 3rd, 2018, 10:40 PM   #21
Senior Member
 
xMathFanx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: USA
Posts: 955
Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
About what, specifically? Try to respond concisely and without flooding me with more links than I ever will or should review, if discussion is your aim.
@imaginethat

First, please note, your original comment was operating under the premise that I was taking issue with the pay factor, when really I am discussing a (nearly) entirely separate issue.

Now, the purpose is not to 'flood with information', but rather begin to justify the claim that experts in any given subject field are well aware of how poor the k-12 public system is for (at least) their given field--it is hardly even controversial. There are many reasons why this is the case, some clear, some speculative--however, it seems to me that you are coming from the position that the contention I just promoted requires further justification. Then, to start, we can zoom in any one, two, or some small number of these subjects in order to investigate how adequately (or inadequately) they are being taught at the moment. It is imperative to discuss this point relatively thoroughly before moving on to any other critique of the school system, as this is the foundation (in many ways).

If you have a topic in mind, we can start there. Or, we can simply start with one of the ones I have already listed/suggested.
xMathFanx is offline  
Old April 3rd, 2018, 11:15 PM   #22
Senior Member
 
Twisted Sister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Brown Township, Ohio
Posts: 11,891
Quote:
Originally Posted by xMathFanx View Post
@imaginethat

First, please note, your original comment was operating under the premise that I was taking issue with the pay factor, when really I am discussing a (nearly) entirely separate issue.

Now, the purpose is not to 'flood with information', but rather begin to justify the claim that experts in any given subject field are well aware of how poor the k-12 public system is for (at least) their given field--it is hardly even controversial. There are many reasons why this is the case, some clear, some speculative--however, it seems to me that you are coming from the position that the contention I just promoted requires further justification. Then, to start, we can zoom in any one, two, or some small number of these subjects in order to investigate how adequately (or inadequately) they are being taught at the moment. It is imperative to discuss this point relatively thoroughly before moving on to any other critique of the school system, as this is the foundation (in many ways).

If you have a topic in mind, we can start there. Or, we can simply start with one of the ones I have already listed/suggested.
Arguing with The Moderator serves no purpose other than to annoy The Moderator.
Twisted Sister is offline  
Old April 4th, 2018, 03:06 AM   #23
Senior Member
 
justoneman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: chicago
Posts: 4,220
Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
Teachers shouldn't have pensions???
pensions no. They should not. There is a reason why business's no longer offer pensions. As it is now, teacher pensions payout levels are are very very high.
Thanks from Sabcat

Last edited by justoneman; April 4th, 2018 at 07:56 AM.
justoneman is online now  
Old April 4th, 2018, 04:59 AM   #24
Talent on loan from god
 
Camelot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 27,498
The problem with the teachers in these red states was predictable and was predicted. These state slashed taxes on the wealthy and businesses while pushing the phony meme that tax cuts would super charge business and pay for themselves. The reality turned out to be quite different. In states like Kansas, Oklahoma, Kentucky and West Virginia, big budget shortfalls appeared as a result of those tax cut so states had to slash spending including education. What we are witnessing is Republican economic policy with all of it’s phony promises.
Camelot is offline  
Old April 4th, 2018, 07:23 AM   #25
Senior Member
 
imaginethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Western Slope, Colorado
Posts: 60,017
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabcat View Post
If their jobs were merit based pay i would support that 100% as it stands their pay is extracted from the public against our will, once they get tenured they are basically unfireable. Then you get into unions, the bloat in administration. So on and so forth.

Release the states death grip from the education system and maybe it will not only attract higher quality people but demand higher pay. As it stands they are government workers.
I spent a lot of time investigating the value of merit-based pay for teachers. You, the professed anti-statist, should recognize immediately that the best any merit-based testing can reveal is a teacher's success in programming his or her students to successfully complete state-based testing that excels in testing a student's regurgitation quotient but not much else.

When you put a teacher's livelihood on the line, yes, most will "teach to the test" though they may loathe doing so.

What works in business doesn't always work in the humanities and especially education.

Considering the immense burdens created by "mainstreaming" students with severe physical and mental issues combined with students whose parents apparently never applied the concept of "discipline," it's a damned wonder anyone chooses to become a public school teacher.

Oh, and one more challenge facing teachers: Despite teachers being in the boiling pot, almost everybody outside of the pot knows better than teachers on how best to educate their undisciplined children. Teachers often get no back up from parents or administrators. Usually.
Thanks from RNG and Camelot
imaginethat is offline  
Old April 4th, 2018, 11:12 AM   #26
#freetommy
 
Sabcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Earth
Posts: 27,032
Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
I spent a lot of time investigating the value of merit-based pay for teachers. You, the professed anti-statist, should recognize immediately that the best any merit-based testing can reveal is a teacher's success in programming his or her students to successfully complete state-based testing that excels in testing a student's regurgitation quotient but not much else.

When you put a teacher's livelihood on the line, yes, most will "teach to the test" though they may loathe doing so.

What works in business doesn't always work in the humanities and especially education.

Considering the immense burdens created by "mainstreaming" students with severe physical and mental issues combined with students whose parents apparently never applied the concept of "discipline," it's a damned wonder anyone chooses to become a public school teacher.

Oh, and one more challenge facing teachers: Despite teachers being in the boiling pot, almost everybody outside of the pot knows better than teachers on how best to educate their undisciplined children. Teachers often get no back up from parents or administrators. Usually.

Yet we apply a one size fits all to education. This is why we need to address something like the voucher system. Different people have different desires and needs.
Sabcat is offline  
Old April 4th, 2018, 12:27 PM   #27
Senior Member
 
Clara007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Arizona
Posts: 10,585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabcat View Post
If their jobs were merit based pay i would support that 100% as it stands their pay is extracted from the public against our will, once they get tenured they are basically unfireable. Then you get into unions, the bloat in administration. So on and so forth.

Release the states death grip from the education system and maybe it will not only attract higher quality people but demand higher pay. As it stands they are government workers.

I've taught in 3 school districts and in the private sector. One of those was merit-based and I can tell you right now--it was a mess--although I did VERY well financially....because by the time I started in the 3rd district I had 25 years of experience under my belt. I was good at writing grants, lesson plans, classroom management, extra currics (music, theater, clubs), and technology. I knew how to prep kids for testing. I was organized and prepared. I had experience in writing curriculum and state standards.

First-year teachers?? Second-year teachers? Level playing fields? Nope.

Eventually merit pay, it was eliminated, although the district still ties testing to salaries.
Take a look at this link. Pros and cons of merit pay.

https://www.ernweb.com/educational-r...-compensation/

p.s. You tell your little "shadow" GUYKEK that the old cliche "those who can't do, TEACH" is bullshit. Woody Allen added this in one of his movies: "...and those who can't teach...teach gym."
"Actually, the precise quote is, "He who can, does; he who cannot, teaches." by George Bernard Shaw in "Maxims for Revolutionists". Put on your thinking cap and detective eyes--then get back to me on that.
Thanks from imaginethat
Clara007 is offline  
Old April 4th, 2018, 12:33 PM   #28
#freetommy
 
Sabcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Earth
Posts: 27,032
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clara007 View Post
I've taught in 3 school districts and in the private sector. One of those was merit-based and I can tell you right now--it was a mess--although I did VERY well financially....because by the time I started in the 3rd district I had 25 years of experience under my belt. I was good at writing grants, lesson plans, classroom management, extra currics (music, theater, clubs), and technology. I knew how to prep kids for testing. I was organized and prepared. I had experience in writing curriculum and state standards.

First-year teachers?? Second-year teachers? Level playing fields? Nope.

Eventually merit pay, it was eliminated, although the district still ties testing to salaries.
Take a look at this link. Pros and cons of merit pay.

https://www.ernweb.com/educational-r...-compensation/

p.s. You tell your little "shadow" GUYKEK that the old cliche "those who can't do, TEACH" is bullshit. Woody Allen added this in one of his movies: "...and those who can't teach...teach gym."
"Actually, the precise quote is, "He who can, does; he who cannot, teaches." by George Bernard Shaw in "Maxims for Revolutionists". Put on your thinking cap and detective eyes--then get back to me on that.

I believe that the those who can't teach maxim goes back to one of the greek philosophers. I could easily be wrong but dont have time to look it up right now or properly reply to your post. I will though.
Sabcat is offline  
Old April 4th, 2018, 12:38 PM   #29
Senior Member
 
imaginethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Western Slope, Colorado
Posts: 60,017
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabcat View Post
Yet we apply a one size fits all to education. This is why we need to address something like the voucher system. Different people have different desires and needs.
Where did you get the idea that a voucher system "needs" to be addressed? It's been a hot topic for the last 30-40 years, and it was and is a bad idea.

After the Revolution, the responsibility for education was believed to be best shouldered by families making choices. That changed though some such as Jefferson supported a good public education system from the start.

Jefferson, among others such as Noah Webster and Samuel Adams, believed an educated populace provided the best insurance for having and keeping a functioning democratic republic which protected a citizen's creator-endowed unalienable rights. Jefferson:
Instead of an aristocracy of wealth, of more harm and danger than benefit to society, to make an opening for the aristocracy of virtue and talent, which nature has wisely provided for the direction of the interests of society and scattered with equal hand through all its conditions, was deemed essential to a well-ordered republic.

By that part of our plan which prescribes the selection of the youths of genius from among the classes of the poor, we hope to avail the state of those talents which nature has sown as liberally among the poor as the rich, but which perish without use, if not sought for and cultivated.
The early proponents of locally controlled public school systems noted that in lieu of such a system, the US population would inevitably transform into a nation of people whose parents either did or didn't have the means or the inclination to provide a rounded education for their children. Jefferson:
A system of general instruction, which shall reach every description of our citizens, from the richest to the poorest, as it was the earliest, so will it be the latest, of all the public concerns in which I shall permit myself to take an interest.
In modern vernacular, without a public education system, Jefferson and others predicted a slow transformation from a upwardly mobile system into a society of haves and have nots, the wealth inequality paradigm.

All that said, to focus on the front line troops, the teachers, who operate according to "rules of engagement" created by representatives with political and even religious designs, is in itself a reflection of how poorly too many people are educated.

And these uneducated folks press for more inequality via a voucher system. It makes sense, not good sense, rather nonsense. Now I await your two-line response....
imaginethat is offline  
Old April 4th, 2018, 12:39 PM   #30
Senior Member
 
imaginethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Western Slope, Colorado
Posts: 60,017
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Sister View Post
I agree wholeheartily, no money from the private sector to pay their lavish pensions. Get an on line Masters Degree and the teacher's pension skyrockets.

edit: My sister got an online Masters Degree and she cannot write proper English.
I agree that this is an abuse of the system.
imaginethat is offline  
Reply

  Defending The Truth Political Forum > Political Issues > Education

Tags
change, salaries, teacher



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
US Congress Salaries and Benefits Clara007 Politicians 2 August 20th, 2017 08:54 AM
Need a job? U.S. Giving Syrian Fighters Millions of Dollars for Salaries pana8 Current Events 5 February 18th, 2014 07:45 AM
Charity Is Not A Substitute For Justice The Poor Need Higher Salaries Not Food Drives skews13 Current Events 136 December 12th, 2013 12:06 PM
RIAA Salaries Revealed! tadpole256 Business & Industries 2 October 18th, 2005 08:48 PM


Facebook Twitter RSS Feed



Copyright © 2005-2013 Defending The Truth. All rights reserved.