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Old April 4th, 2018, 04:17 PM   #41
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@Clara

Care to try and support that claim? Note, it will be very challenging--considering it is false.
Which claim?
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Old April 4th, 2018, 04:17 PM   #42
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@Hollywood

Okay--thanks for clarifying.
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Old April 4th, 2018, 04:20 PM   #43
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Right wing or right winger.
@Hollywood

Actually, to add to the conversation off of that point, a traditionally right-wing presence is one of the big problems with the education system, all the way up through Higher Ed--in the form of making religious certainties taboo to challenge.
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Old April 4th, 2018, 04:20 PM   #44
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So? You pay your plumber two or three times more to unstop your toilet.

And where did you get your figures? Owing to your record for inaccuracy, are you ever going to provide your sources? Do you think you're special and don't have to play by the rules everyone else uses?
I do not think teachers are in general overpaid. However the plumber comparison is not fair. What you paid for the service is not what the plumber actually earned and it is often very physical work. Unless one is a union steamfitter, they don't make jack. Roto-Rooter will start you at around $12 around here, about on par with MacDonald's. Those guys have to up sell service calls to a big job just to make a tiny bit of commission. Big jobs are usually back breakers, such as a lot of digging or busting concrete to get to a sewer line. Plumbers are notorious for developing back and joint problems after years of doing that line of work.
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Last edited by Marcus Livius; April 4th, 2018 at 05:31 PM.
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Old April 4th, 2018, 04:22 PM   #45
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Which claim?
The one I highlighted; that all the people discussing this have not "set foot in public schools in decades"--which does not apply to me
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Old April 4th, 2018, 04:38 PM   #46
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I do not think teachers are in general overpaid. However the plumber comparison is not fair. What you paid for the service is not what the plumber actually earned and it often very physical work. Unless one is a union steamfitter, they don't make jack. Roto-Rooter will start you at about $12 around here, about on par with MacDonald's. Those guys have to up sell service calls to a big job just to make a tiny bit of commission. Big jobs are usually back breakers, such as a lot of digging or busting concrete to get to a sewer line.
I worked in and around the building trades, and maintenance trades, for more than 20 years.

Yep, beginners working for a master will make those pitiful wages while the master charges 3-4 times that to the customer. The average journeyman makes $25-26/hr. in Colorado.

Typical house call:
According to project data from HomeAdvisor members, the average cost to hire a plumber ranges between $171 and $453. The average cost per hour for a plumber ranges from $45 to $150 per hour depending on the job, timing and location. Services may include drain cleaning, faucet replacement or installation, and toilet repair.
https://www.homeadvisor.com/cost/plu...ire-a-plumber/

Getting a master's license and subcontracting is the way to make money as a plumber, or electrician, or carpenter, or any field in the trades.
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Old April 4th, 2018, 05:09 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Marcus Livius View Post
I do not think teachers are in general overpaid. However the plumber comparison is not fair. What you paid for the service is not what the plumber actually earned and it is often very physical work. Unless one is a union steamfitter, they don't make jack. Roto-Rooter will start you at about $12 around here, about on par with MacDonald's. Those guys have to up sell service calls to a big job just to make a tiny bit of commission. Big jobs are usually back breakers, such as a lot of digging or busting concrete to get to a sewer line. Plumbers are notorious for developing back and joint problems after years of being a plumber.
I was a plumber's helper many decades ago and that is skilled work. Wipe your joints when sweating copper pipes. I got a new water heater delivered and installed by Lowes. When the inspector came out I told him they forgot to wipe the joints which made him smile. The inspector said I keep telling them that!
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Old April 4th, 2018, 05:40 PM   #48
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@Clara

Care to try and support that claim? Note, it will be very challenging--considering it is false.


Prove it. Ask our "panel". See what you get. I know that IT was very involved in his school district and I'm sure some that have kids currently in school take an interest--Sabcat will have to weigh in.

I don't think it will be challenging. Let's see who has something to say. I'm glad to take the hits. In this particular case, I hope I'm wrong, but considering the remarks SO FAR.....I doubt it.
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Old April 4th, 2018, 06:28 PM   #49
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Where did you get the idea that a voucher system "needs" to be addressed? It's been a hot topic for the last 30-40 years, and it was and is a bad idea.

After the Revolution, the responsibility for education was believed to be best shouldered by families making choices. That changed though some such as Jefferson supported a good public education system from the start.

Jefferson, among others such as Noah Webster and Samuel Adams, believed an educated populace provided the best insurance for having and keeping a functioning democratic republic which protected a citizen's creator-endowed unalienable rights. Jefferson:
Instead of an aristocracy of wealth, of more harm and danger than benefit to society, to make an opening for the aristocracy of virtue and talent, which nature has wisely provided for the direction of the interests of society and scattered with equal hand through all its conditions, was deemed essential to a well-ordered republic.

By that part of our plan which prescribes the selection of the youths of genius from among the classes of the poor, we hope to avail the state of those talents which nature has sown as liberally among the poor as the rich, but which perish without use, if not sought for and cultivated.
The early proponents of locally controlled public school systems noted that in lieu of such a system, the US population would inevitably transform into a nation of people whose parents either did or didn't have the means or the inclination to provide a rounded education for their children. Jefferson:
A system of general instruction, which shall reach every description of our citizens, from the richest to the poorest, as it was the earliest, so will it be the latest, of all the public concerns in which I shall permit myself to take an interest.
In modern vernacular, without a public education system, Jefferson and others predicted a slow transformation from a upwardly mobile system into a society of haves and have nots, the wealth inequality paradigm.

All that said, to focus on the front line troops, the teachers, who operate according to "rules of engagement" created by representatives with political and even religious designs, is in itself a reflection of how poorly too many people are educated.

And these uneducated folks press for more inequality via a voucher system. It makes sense, not good sense, rather nonsense. Now I await your two-line response....



Invoking Jefferson is more than adorable. I cannot possibly believe that he would have in any way supported the behemoth that the federal government has become.

The public school system is failing on an epic level. The solution for this has been toss more and more money at kt creating more and more beauracacies. There is no incentive for the schools to improve and or run a better budget. The solution for this IMO is compitition.

Let's use the number of $10k a year for arguments sake.

Each public school gets $10k/yr/ for each student. If each unhappy family could take that $10k out of the failing system and put it into the schools of their choice it would force schools to compete for students. Schools would end up focusing on different styles of education attracting families that desired that type of education for their children. I fail to see the problem in this.

This is basically what Minneapolis does and why we moved back here. They have open enrollment throughout the city and different schools focus on different stuff. Both of the elementary schools my kids went to had mixed grades and the kids were allowed to work at their own pace so they could quickly advance if they so desired. The high schools also follow a similar model. As one school is more STEM focused and one is an arts school. The sports teams are also spread a bit around.

Here i am looking for a work around to the serious problem i see w/ the education system that IMO to be successful would have to be completely ripped down and rebuilt. This seems like a logical compromise.
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Old April 4th, 2018, 06:37 PM   #50
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Isn't it interesting the NUMBER of experts we have on DTT, particularly on public school, teachers, their hours, and their pay? I suppose this is because everyone who WENT TO public school thinks they know what's going on even though it's been decades since they stepped into a public school building. They probably NEVER IN THEIR LIVES attended a school board meeting or volunteered at a public school.

I left for school every morning at 6:30. Had about a 20 min drive. Stopped at the mailboxes, put my sack lunch in the frig and unlocked my classroom door at about 7 am. At that point, I got everything up and running, made copies of worksheets/tests and lesson plans--which had to be delivered to the principal and sometimes went to a before school meeting with parents and/or staff. Kids started coming through the doors at 8 am. School bell rang at 8:20. I had 30 min for lunch--a working lunch--and 40 minutes of prep time. School dismissed at 3:15. Staff meetings, tutoring and after-school detentions started at 3:30. I never in my life got home before 5:00 pm unless I was sick. (That's another story!) Had supper with the family and started grading papers while I was in my jammies. Rinse repeat. Every school day for 40 years.
Add to that all the evening activities: parent-teacher conferences, science fairs, fundraisers, band and choir concerts, sports events (YES we were encouraged to be there), school board meetings, etc.
In the summer I took graduate classes and technology training so I could go up on the salary scale. By August I was back in my classroom getting ready for the new school year.
Yes, we got a nice break at Christmas (Dec. 23-Jan. 3) and a week at Spring Break.
Now, anyone who wants to debate all the above is welcome to do so, but you'd better be a teacher, administrator or school board member. No one else has a clue.

Sorry. I am not an administrator and i do not imply that teachers do not take their work home. I also do not know anyone who does not take work home especially those on salary.

Your description of your day was pre internet. Many of that stuff can be done in a few minutes that back then took hours and from the comfort of your house as you watch american idol.
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