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Old July 9th, 2017, 12:56 PM   #31
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Don't worry, elon is siphoning his chunk off. Tesla is not a viable investment right now. Most people I know got out of it already. We will see what happens w/ the 3. If they can make that happen on time and w/o glitches they may save a little face. It is all smoke and mirrors.


Though I almost put a deposit on a 3 when they first came out. Even though they were/are fully refundable i just couldn't talk myself into it.

I am guessing as full of technology as they are they will rapidly depreciate, more so than the average new car.
I had a long talk with a Tesla owner the other day. Seems to me a lot of their marketing is smoke and mirrors. Not that they aren't nice cars with some very real world usable technology in them. They are certainly changing the public's view of what an electric car can be.

One example, you buy the base model it comes with a 60Kw battery. If later you decide you want the 75Kw option, do you run to the dealer and have the new battery installed ?? NOPE, you go online, pay your $X000 and they update the software letting you access the extra capacity that's always been in the car.

This guy, an otherwise very shrewd business man thought this was great. I was standing there thinking, so what you're saying is they already have the capacity built into the car so the cost of production is the exact same for either option, but you have to pay extra to use the extra capacity that you've already bought and paid for ??

Same thing for the "ludicrous mode". The electric motor(s) are very powerful, but once again you can't access the max performance option unless you've paid the extra fee for the privilege of doing so.

Also Elon is getting double government subsidy. As a car maker he is subject to the CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) regulations. Since his cars don't use gas, for every one he sells, he gets CAFE credits from the government which he then turns around and sells to other car makers.
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Old July 9th, 2017, 01:05 PM   #32
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Wingnuts have themselves convinced that ignorance is bliss. Hey, what happened to those 3,000 temporary XL Pipeline jobs installing cheaper Chinese piping ? BLAH HA HA HA HA

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Solar Employs More People In U.S. Electricity Generation Than Oil, Coal And Gas Combined

In the United States, more people were employed in solar power last year than in generating electricity through coal, gas and oil energy combined. According to a new report from the U.S. Department of Energy, solar power employed 43 percent of the Electric Power Generation sector's workforce in 2016, while fossil fuels combined accounted for just 22 percent. It's a welcome statistic for those seeking to refute Donald Trump's assertion that green energy projects are bad news for the American economy.



https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmc.../#3070d1fa2800
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Old July 9th, 2017, 01:11 PM   #33
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Just a little side note here. France has always taxed large bore engines. They don't have 100 million ginormous, gas guzzling SUVs and pickup trucks running around over there. Unlike the here, only about 6 in 10 people own cars. When you consider that 80% of their power is nuclear, if they invest in a rapid charge infrastructure converting their fleet to electric is not un-doable. There would still be traditional cars on the roads for years, and there's always going to be tourists coming for visits, so it wouldn't eliminate ICE cars and trucks, but over the next few decades it would greatly reduce the numbers with a corresponding drop and the need for oil.
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Old July 9th, 2017, 11:56 PM   #34
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Why not just have engines that run off of pure alcohol? Don't they already do that in Brazil?
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Old July 10th, 2017, 12:13 AM   #35
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Why not just have engines that run off of pure alcohol? Don't they already do that in Brazil?
I don't think that E is economically viable though I am fairly certain that there is little to no difference in many import cars that go to the states VS brazil.

I can run e85 in mine w/ just a tune but my lpfp will shit the bed and i assume that it would be rough on the internals. Point being that the designes are very similar. But I do recall reading that calories used to create e85 are greater than those that are created and removing the government subsidized corn from the equation and no one would make it. That was some time ago and it very well could have been a propaganda piece but adding in all of the oil in the materials it sounded spot on to me.
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Old July 10th, 2017, 02:26 AM   #36
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There is a new Tesla store close to my house. I went in and looked around. The SUV was impressive. The salesman gave me the rundown. It will seat seven easily. The windshield goes up and over the top of the car. The doors go up. The doors adjust if something is next to the car and they adjust as they go up. The computer in the car was bigger than a laptop. Two options on batteries: 250 miles and 330 miles. It takes all night for a full charge on AC, but Tesla has quick charge stations that will give a half charge in 20 minutes. It is DC.
I seriously doubt that it is all Direct Current and think the wheel motors are three phase Alternating Current via a DC inverter. Nicolai Tesla invented three phase AC so a Tesla car better have three phase somewhere in it.
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Old July 10th, 2017, 09:29 AM   #37
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Why not just have engines that run off of pure alcohol? Don't they already do that in Brazil?
Some race cars do that but it is complex. The exhaust from burning pure alcohol is far more corrosive to engines. In top class racing where an engine typically isn't used for more than a few hundreds of miles, or in top drag racing where they go typically less than one mile between major overhauls it's fine.

For your personal car or for long haul trucking, it would be a tad expensive.

There is also some component of gas and diesel being a help in lubrication which alcohol isn't.

I'd like Goober's take on this.
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Old July 10th, 2017, 10:06 AM   #38
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I seriously doubt that it is all Direct Current and think the wheel motors are three phase Alternating Current via a DC inverter. Nicolai Tesla invented three phase AC so a Tesla car better have three phase somewhere in it.
I do not know. It is way over my head. The salesman said one could by the Tesla battery and solar panels for the home and it is quick charge DC current.
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Old July 10th, 2017, 10:31 AM   #39
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I seriously doubt that it is all Direct Current and think the wheel motors are three phase Alternating Current via a DC inverter. Nicolai Tesla invented three phase AC so a Tesla car better have three phase somewhere in it.
You are probably correct, although DC motors are still around and being used in locomotives and shipping.
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Old July 10th, 2017, 11:03 AM   #40
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I seriously doubt that it is all Direct Current and think the wheel motors are three phase Alternating Current via a DC inverter. Nicolai Tesla invented three phase AC so a Tesla car better have three phase somewhere in it.
I doubt if there is any AC in the car anywhere. In modern ICE vehicles the only AC is the output from the alternator but before it is used anywhere it is rectified to DC for all other uses.

All batteries put out DC and need DC, or at least rectified AC to charge. All the electronics in your house and car run on DC. Again, the AC input is rectified.

And finally, AC motors run at a constant rpm so it is difficult to vary an AC motor's speed without a huge loss in efficiency. So called diesel trains in fact use a diesel engine to drive a DC generator which powers DC motor that drive the wheels. A DC motor at constant load, will rotate at a rate proportional to the voltage sent to it, a much easier thing to control with DC.

The reason most of the world is on AC is that its voltage can be easily and efficiently stepped up and down. This allows the output of a power station to be stepped up to a high voltage for long distance transmission. And line-loss varies with amperage. So higher voltage is lower amperage is lower line-loss.

Then the voltage is stepped down before being sent to your house.
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