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Old April 12th, 2018, 07:00 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
It's never taken more calories in than out in the CBE process, around 1.3 cal out for 1.0 cal in. Sugar cane gets around 8 out fr 1 in.

Ethanol is the rage because GW wanted to "go green," and CBE was a good way to look like yer all green..... which of course, you're nowhere near. The entire CBE exercise can be summed up: Take a bunch of fossil fuel, make fertilizer and other chemicals needed with it, still using fossil fuel, prep the soil, plant, cultivate, apply more fossil-fuel derived fertilizers, herbicides, and fungicides, and with all that fossil-fueled stuff going on a tiny among of fuel will be created.

Really tiny.

It's the high-fructose corn syrup that's a bugger. Corn syrup isn't bad.

But don't pfffft the climate changing. We're completely at the mercy of the Mother. You are aware that gradualism can't explain everything.


It was the high-fructose that i was talking about.

My point about climate change was that it is still all the rage yet our modernized farming techniques could be doing just as much if not more damage for future generations than anyone is giving it credit for.
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Old April 12th, 2018, 07:21 PM   #22
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It was the high-fructose that i was talking about.

My point about climate change was that it is still all the rage yet our modernized farming techniques could be doing just as much if not more damage for future generations than anyone is giving it credit for.
It's all one system. It's our "relationship" with our mother.

Whether farming, transportation, you name it, we've devised technologies that keep us alive at the expense of our Mother.

We drug her, force her, bludgeon her into doing our will, but she's finite and humankind isn't, and space is incredibly more dangerous than we once thought it was.
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Old April 12th, 2018, 07:29 PM   #23
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It's all one system. It's our "relationship" with our mother.

Whether farming, transportation, you name it, we've devised technologies that keep us alive at the expense of our Mother.

We drug her, force her, bludgeon her into doing our will, but she's finite and humankind isn't, and space is incredibly more dangerous than we once thought it was.
Quote:

I hear a very gentle sound
Very near yet very far
Very soft, yeah, very clear
Come today, come today

What have they done to the earth?
What have they done to our fair sister?
Ravaged and plundered and ripped her and bit her
Stuck her with knives in the side of the dawn
And tied her with fences and dragged her down

I hear a very gentle sound
With your ear down to the ground
We want the world and we want it...
We want the world and we want it...
When the music's over
The doors
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Old April 12th, 2018, 07:48 PM   #24
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"One More Time To Live," Moody Blues

Look out of my window
See the world passing by
See the look in her eye

One more time to live
and I have made it mine
Leave the wise to write
for they write worldly rhymes
And he who wants to fight
begins the end of time...
For I have riches more than these
For I have riches more than these

Desolation
Creation
Tell me someone why there's only confusion
Evolution
Tell me someone that this is all an illusion
Pollution
Tell me someone
Saturation
Tell me someone
Population
Annihilation
Revolution
Tell me someone why this talk of revolution
Confusion
Tell me someone when we're changing evolution
Illusion
Tell me someone
Conclusion
Tell me someone
Starvation
Degredation
Humiliation

Contemplation
Changes in my life
Inspiration
Elation
Changes in my life
Salvation
Changes in my life
Communication
Compassion
Solution

Look out on the hedgerow
As the world rushes by
Hear the birds sign a sigh

One more tree will fall
how strong the growing vine
Turn the earth to sand
and still permit no crime
How one thought will live
provide the others die
For I have riches more than these
For I have riches more than these
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Old April 12th, 2018, 08:01 PM   #25
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Knights in white satin?

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It's all one system. It's our "relationship" with our mother.

Whether farming, transportation, you name it, we've devised technologies that keep us alive at the expense of our Mother.

We drug her, force her, bludgeon her into doing our will, but she's finite and humankind isn't, and space is incredibly more dangerous than we once thought it was.
Mother Nature? The driving force - the sun - is near enough to infinite in duration for our purposes - billions of years yet to go, & even @ the end, a fairly steady progression to a red giant. (We'll have to evacuate by that point - unless our tech becomes incredibly much more effective - but that doesn't seem to be the way to bet.)

No, there's energy galore in terms of insolation - but we have to do a much better job of capturing & utilizing that energy with minimal bad side effects - or come up with some other energy source. Solar arrays in orbit would be a good stopgap, until we can bring fusion online (except that the latter is always 50 years off).

We can reconfigure our economies & industries & so on - what we have to do is capture costs for what are considered externalities now in current economic models (things like clean air, water, crops, food animals - you know, inconsequential things like that). I think it's doable - simply because we can't just stand around & wait for the next guy to fix things for us - that's not how the World works - or @ least, not how it's worked to this point.

The West & the US in particular has prided itself upon being master of our own destiny. Well, then, it's time & past time to own that sobriquet - or abandon it altogether, & wait for someone else to lead. I don't think anyone else is coming - it's going to be up to us, just like it's been since 1776CE.
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Old April 22nd, 2018, 05:07 AM   #26
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We could do all those things if we controlled anything, but we in fact exist to make profits for a tiny minority who don't care. Happy days!
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Old April 22nd, 2018, 07:54 AM   #27
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Mother Nature? The driving force - the sun - is near enough to infinite in duration for our purposes - billions of years yet to go, & even @ the end, a fairly steady progression to a red giant. (We'll have to evacuate by that point - unless our tech becomes incredibly much more effective - but that doesn't seem to be the way to bet.)

No, there's energy galore in terms of insolation - but we have to do a much better job of capturing & utilizing that energy with minimal bad side effects - or come up with some other energy source. Solar arrays in orbit would be a good stopgap, until we can bring fusion online (except that the latter is always 50 years off).

We can reconfigure our economies & industries & so on - what we have to do is capture costs for what are considered externalities now in current economic models (things like clean air, water, crops, food animals - you know, inconsequential things like that). I think it's doable - simply because we can't just stand around & wait for the next guy to fix things for us - that's not how the World works - or @ least, not how it's worked to this point.

The West & the US in particular has prided itself upon being master of our own destiny. Well, then, it's time & past time to own that sobriquet - or abandon it altogether, & wait for someone else to lead. I don't think anyone else is coming - it's going to be up to us, just like it's been since 1776CE.
Those are some good points, but the main challenge facing humankind is human nature. Whether economic systems, governmental systems, even family systems, the "problem" is people, their fears, anger, greed, jealousy.

To meet the challenges we face we must evolve, not physically but mentally and emotionally, evolve, mature.

It's doable, so why don't we do it? Human nature.
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Old April 22nd, 2018, 08:31 AM   #28
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Some kind of mixed economy, likely

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Those are some good points, but the main challenge facing humankind is human nature. Whether economic systems, governmental systems, even family systems, the "problem" is people, their fears, anger, greed, jealousy.

To meet the challenges we face we must evolve, not physically but mentally and emotionally, evolve, mature.

It's doable, so why don't we do it? Human nature.
I think it's more a question of POV. The rise of gated communities is a symptom. Yes, we want to be secure in our home life. But the notion that we can close off just where we live is a kind of fantasy. What about the farms & ranches that feed us? The utilities that make our lives easier? The webs of comms, transportation, health, education that enrich our lives?

What about the skilled people we need: doctors, dentists, teachers, police, firefighters? The real need is to expand our notion of community - we need as many people as we can convince to throw in with us - whether it's to the stars or to construct a reasonably functional society here on earth.

Capitalism may be adaptable to that, I'm not sure. Capitalism has certainly brought us a long way, & has also caused some major problems in that some aspects of community suffer under a pure profit economic/social/political system. We have to find those boundaries & take account of them differently, so that basic necessities are not part of the for-profit model.
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Old April 25th, 2018, 10:39 AM   #29
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The biggest killer with the birds, the fires practiced by the man, for example I speak of my country, last year had many fires, today I see species of birds on the seashore, something I had never seen, for the Portuguese forestmen of the two one to take them by helicopter and throw them into the middle of the fire, as the Portuguese military did with the black innocent in Africa, in Portugal is a little shame with the fire, friend burned a forest with more than 700 years sent to plant by a king of Portugal, no one wants to know, we now have more fires in Portugal than in the time of the Portuguese dictatorship, they are species of birds that disappear as species of animals, because of these terrorists who walk in small planes to set fire to the Portuguese forest, it is a pity that my country does not have the death penalty, for these terrorists who give as much projizo to Portugal as seifam Portuguese lives and they are without anything, as we can protect the birds, if in Portugal it does not have a law worthy to give these murderers, friends I feel revolted. That is why I am in favor of popular justice for these nature killers.
..................

O maior assassino com as aves,são os incendios praticado pelo homem,por exemplo falo do meu país,o ano passado teve muitos encendios,hoje vejo espécies de aves á beira mar,coisa que eu nunca tinha visto,para os encendiários da floresta portuguêsa das duas uma pegar neles por em helicóptero e os lançar para o meio do fogo,como os militares portuguêses faziam com os pretos inocentos em áfrica,em Portugal é uma pouca vergonha com os encendios,amigo ardeu uma floresta com mais de 700 anos mandada plantar por um rei de Portugal,ninguem quer saber ,hoje temos mais fogos em Portugal do que no tempo da dictadura portuguêsa,são espécies de aves que desaparecem como espécies de animais,por causa destes terroristas que andam em avionetas a porem fogo á floresta portuguêsa,é pena de o meu país não ter a pena de morte,para estes terroristas que dão tanto projuizo a Portugal como seifam vidas de portuguêses e ficam sem nada,como podemos protejar as aves,se em Portugal não tem uma lei digna para dar a estes assassinos,amigos eu me sinto revoltado. Por isso eu sou a favor da justiça popular para estes assassinos da natureza.
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Old April 27th, 2018, 12:19 PM   #30
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many species of birds-disappear (
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