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Old February 25th, 2018, 09:59 AM   #31
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GWB called Putin, Putty Poo which gives a visual. Putin is a short man and every short man I have ever met has a overextended ego.
Putin is small, but confident, cause he could break all of the taller and larger foreign leaders he meets in half! Not that it's either here nor there, but Putin came out of the military and KGB, and has years of training in martial arts...and I mean REAL martial arts, not what you learn at a local club. Every military grade hand to hand combat that's taught, emphasizes learning and being able to apply lethal strikes and break bones when and if necessary. And that sure as shit is something neither Bush, Obama or now Trump would know what to do with!
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Marx was a dime store novel writer who made millions but was known all over Europe. Engels was a poor scholar and the brain behind the Communist Manifesto.
Sounds like you seriously need to do some reading...if that wasn't being a troll or sarcastic! Cause Marx was the impoverished scholar following a desire to learn why the workings of mercantile capitalism were turning London into a literal hellhole/while Engels was his wealthy friend..born into a life of wealthy privilege, but uncomfortable with the crap he saw traveling Europe and described by his friend and more learned collaborator- Karl Marx.

It actually doesn't matter a crap if you appreciate Marxist economic or political theory, or his writings on history and human nature that came later in life; what's important to read..or try to read is Das Kapital, because Karl was the first person to explain why capitalism is a chaotic system in practice/not the imagined system that seeks an equilibrium between supply and demand..as fantasized by Adam Smith and David Ricardo for example! Capitalists should read Marx even more diligently than Marxists do...so they won't end up like babbling idiots such as Milton Friedman...whining about how he couldn't understand how the 08 banking meltdown occurred and would have destroyed global capitalism, if it wasn't for the mass infusion of free, virtual money (QE) to the banks and keep the wheels of their real wealth-devouring system functioning!
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Old February 25th, 2018, 10:42 AM   #32
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SMH
Maybe you should read the posts before you just react. True communism is also anarchism.
But a basic understanding of communism per Marx indicates that communism cannot be imposed on a society.

Classless, stateless society CANNOT be imposed. What "state" would impose stateless society and how would it end classes and itself??

Hence, anarchism cannot be imposed, and so no one can bring it about. It must just happen of itself.

Last edited by Kode; February 25th, 2018 at 10:44 AM.
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Old February 25th, 2018, 12:36 PM   #33
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Ofcourse the Orthodox Church went mostly underground...because their above ground work was closely monitored by communist authorities. What Putin is trying to do today is gloss over everything that happened...like Stalin demolishing what was considered the most important cathedral to build a cultural center...a job that wasn't completed until Kruschev cause of the War and everything else. So, his attempt at revising history...like there was no conflict or contradictions is complete historical revisionism after a year of trying to honor the achievements of the Soviet Era/while turning Russia back to what it was prior to the October Revolution.
My wife and I are watching a nine-part series on Afghanistan. The series is being shown on Russia 1, a state channel. It "glosses over" the Soviet invasion. The US is the bad guy, training those "terrorists" who were fighting against an invader.

We've only watched a couple of the episodes, but I have a strong feeling the "moral to the story" will be: Things would have worked out just fine had the US not meddled in Afghan affairs.
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Old February 25th, 2018, 08:05 PM   #34
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Communism is (and was) an unworkable economic system. Now, some Communists will say "But what the USSR/Eastern Europe etc., had was not Communism, but in an intermediate stage leading to Communism....", well Ok, but why didn't the nation states advance from the "dictatorship of the proletariate" into a true classless Communist system? Because they couldn't because the end result was an impossibility.

What was this all the repression and oppression of these Communist governments? No freedom of speech, freedom of assembly. Religion was either banned or severely curtailed. People or the press were not allowed to criticize the regime.

Why not have Communism like Denmark? The Danes for the most part seem to like their system. Basically the government taxes people like 60% of their income and in return the people get cradle to grave services. "Free" schools, University education, health care, probably housing assistance, welfare, government pensions. The government basically taxes the shit out of the citizen for the good of the citizen. The difference between this and the Soviet kind is that the people can freely leave their country, criticize their government and leaders, are free to worship or not worship, and can vote the whole system out.

I question the brutality of the various Communist governments upon their population, taking away basic human rights and freedoms, saddling them with an unworkable and shitty economic model and not allowing most people to freely leave and shooting those who tried.

How crooked and craptastic the Russian government is, it does offer people mobile opportunity to improve their lot in life, the free market always wins out. As with Denmark, if people want to be taxed down to their shorts and are happy with that, good for them, it's another when they put a gun to your head and make you a serf and call it liberty.
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Old March 1st, 2018, 08:35 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
My wife and I are watching a nine-part series on Afghanistan. The series is being shown on Russia 1, a state channel. It "glosses over" the Soviet invasion. The US is the bad guy, training those "terrorists" who were fighting against an invader.

We've only watched a couple of the episodes, but I have a strong feeling the "moral to the story" will be: Things would have worked out just fine had the US not meddled in Afghan affairs.
I don't know the series, but if they mention Kissinger and the CIA creating the movement that led to Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, and destroyed Afghanistan, then they won't be wrong! The US has much more culpability...especially with the financing and support for Pakistani operations that created the Taleban there. Afghanistan was turned into a 'shithole' by US foreign policy/not Soviets!
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Old March 1st, 2018, 08:48 AM   #36
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See, all you guys that say the US constitution comes from the bible are wrong. Your good uncle Putie has the truth for you.



Old St. Lenin should soon supplant Santa Clause as all the kid's hero.

Putin Says Communism Comes From the Bible, Compares Lenin to a Saint
I have always thought it strange that a nation that acted on Christian ideals of helping each other was godless and the nation that does not act on Christian ideals but is materialistic, is the one nation under God.
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Old March 1st, 2018, 08:54 AM   #37
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Communism is (and was) an unworkable economic system. Now, some Communists will say "But what the USSR/Eastern Europe etc., had was not Communism, but in an intermediate stage leading to Communism....", well Ok, but why didn't the nation states advance from the "dictatorship of the proletariate" into a true classless Communist system? Because they couldn't because the end result was an impossibility.

What was this all the repression and oppression of these Communist governments? No freedom of speech, freedom of assembly. Religion was either banned or severely curtailed. People or the press were not allowed to criticize the regime.

Why not have Communism like Denmark? The Danes for the most part seem to like their system. Basically the government taxes people like 60% of their income and in return the people get cradle to grave services. "Free" schools, University education, health care, probably housing assistance, welfare, government pensions. The government basically taxes the shit out of the citizen for the good of the citizen. The difference between this and the Soviet kind is that the people can freely leave their country, criticize their government and leaders, are free to worship or not worship, and can vote the whole system out.

I question the brutality of the various Communist governments upon their population, taking away basic human rights and freedoms, saddling them with an unworkable and shitty economic model and not allowing most people to freely leave and shooting those who tried.

How crooked and craptastic the Russian government is, it does offer people mobile opportunity to improve their lot in life, the free market always wins out. As with Denmark, if people want to be taxed down to their shorts and are happy with that, good for them, it's another when they put a gun to your head and make you a serf and call it liberty.
Well the economic war on the USSR sure didn't help. If we are so sure of ourselves, why don't we normalize our relationship with Cuba and allow free trade with that country and see what they can achieve? I think making sure Cuba does not have a good economy is cowardly.
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Old March 1st, 2018, 09:38 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by senor boogie woogie View Post
Communism is (and was) an unworkable economic system. Now, some Communists will say "But what the USSR/Eastern Europe etc., had was not Communism, but in an intermediate stage leading to Communism...."
No, SBW. It's worse than that. But your characterization of what others say and think is not so far off. But they say and think those things not out of genuine knowledge and understanding, but rather directly out of propaganda we are fed. And most of us don't question it. Russian psychology utilized by their intelligence agencies found that once people adopt and believe false propaganda, they tend to cling tightly to it under just about any circumstances because questioning it is like questioning their own intelligence, and nobody wants to think they've been duped.

But solid, objective, and accurate analysis based on historical facts, revealing why USSR and Chinese communist efforts failed (notice my careful wording of that), are available. And it isn't complicated! But people resist it, preferring to stick to the propaganda that they have unwittingly accepted.



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but why didn't the nation states advance from the "dictatorship of the proletariate" into a true classless Communist system? Because they couldn't because the end result was an impossibility.
No, it was because the dictatorship of the proletariat was never established. All you need to do is (1)be willing to reconsider your own held views (propaganda), and (2) think about what you already know.

I can't help you with the first. But look at what you already know. You know these revolutions were based on and guided by Marx's writings. You know that Marx said socialism would "cast off the chains of exploitation" by putting the workers in charge of their own destiny. And you know that the workers of the USSR and China never actually were in control. You know that in both cases the state appointed bureaucrats as directors of the industries and they appointed government managers to run each factory and direct all production. So you know the workers were not in charge. And therefore you know there was never any actual socialism nor any dictatorship of the proletariat.

See how easy that was?



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What was this all the repression and oppression of these Communist governments? No freedom of speech, freedom of assembly. Religion was either banned or severely curtailed. People or the press were not allowed to criticize the regime.
Yup.



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Why not have Communism like Denmark? The Danes for the most part seem to like their system. Basically the government taxes people like 60% of their income and in return the people get cradle to grave services. "Free" schools, University education, health care, probably housing assistance, welfare, government pensions.
Denmark is not socialist and communism (classless, stateless society) has never existed anywhere. You know that, too. And the Danish PM recently objected to all the talk in the US about Denmark being "socialist" saying they are not socialist, but rather have a market economy. -Which reveals the worldwide confusion on all this, because socialism, too, would be a market economy. It just a question of who controls the markets.

But if you research Denmark and their tax system, you will see that the tax rate is actually about 45%, and that goes for every level of income. They have a pretty flat tax system. And yes, their revenue provides for many support systems that should be provided.



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I question the brutality of the various Communist governments upon their population
I don't question it; I REJECT it!



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taking away basic human rights and freedoms, saddling them with an unworkable and shitty economic model and not allowing most people to freely leave and shooting those who tried.
Right! But if they actually had socialism, none of that would exist for them.

(See? Here, in this case, I accept your characterization of "communist governments". We need to make a very, very careful and principled distinction of communism vs. "communist governments" based on fact and reality.)



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How crooked and craptastic the Russian government is, it does offer people mobile opportunity to improve their lot in life, the free market always wins out.
YES! Long ago, since the government by the communist party abandoned the socialist effort and put government managers in charge, what they created was "state capitalism". And now it is transitioning to a more common type of capitalism, which will be a great advantage for Russia and will no doubt raise the standard of living of their people.



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As with Denmark, if people want to be taxed down to their shorts and are happy with that, good for them, it's another when they put a gun to your head and make you a serf and call it liberty.
Oh, that's a confused expression. Serfs are the underclass of feudalism, and Russia is well beyond feudalism now. Let's try to express ourselves with accuracy based on facts. There is enough confusion out there and we need not add to it.
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Old March 1st, 2018, 09:55 AM   #39
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My wife and I are watching a nine-part series on Afghanistan. The series is being shown on Russia 1, a state channel. It "glosses over" the Soviet invasion. The US is the bad guy, training those "terrorists" who were fighting against an invader.

We've only watched a couple of the episodes, but I have a strong feeling the "moral to the story" will be: Things would have worked out just fine had the US not meddled in Afghan affairs.
That might be the moral of their version of the story, but in what way was arming Bin Ladan and Saddam and training their men to fight, right?
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Old March 2nd, 2018, 10:00 AM   #40
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That might be the moral of their version of the story, but in what way was arming Bin Ladan and Saddam and training their men to fight, right?
The only Afghanis I've ever talked to have no personal memory of the last Soviet-supported Afghan Government of Babrak Karmal. Until the collapse of that government and Taleban theocrats purged and murdered all communists and suspected communists in the country, there was a very large segment of the population...at least in the cities who were members of the Communist Party, but as in Pakistan and so many other Arab nations and Iran, communist parties and ideologues were eliminated by the Islamic theocrats the US and allied Neocons claim to be fighting today!

A book by German historian - F. William Engdahl I read last year, made the argument that all of the modern Islamic movements...all the way back to the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and the Salifist schools in Saudi Arabia were patronized and recruited by first the British Empire and then the American Empire, which saw reactionary Islamists as natural allies in a fight against Marxism and anti-imperialist ideologies....but why not just yell about their religion today and act like the West had nothing to do with the continual chaos of the Middle East!
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