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Old March 30th, 2012, 10:54 AM   #1
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This story will freak out the wingnuts who imagine everyone fits into one of two genders, and who want everyone forced into rigid gender roles and gender identity:



Quote:
http://worldblog.msn...ghts-in-germany



MAINZ, Germany – Pink? Or blue? For most parents this is the paramount question when it comes to organizing a baby shower or choosing a color for a newborn's room.



But, what happens if the exact gender of the child cannot be determined? It is estimated that in Germany alone approximately 80,000 people are intersexual, so-called hermaphrodites, who have physical features – such as chromosomes, hormones, gonads and outer sexual organs – which cannot be unambiguously attributed to just one gender.



Christiane Voelling, 52, is an intersexual.



She is a nurse living in Düsseldorf who was born without defining gender characteristics.



Because German law requires that a newborn's personal data – including gender specification – is registered within a week, Christiane was proclaimed a boy at birth and called Thomas after a midwife supposedly mistook her enlarged clitoris for a penis.



In Voelling's case, it was later diagnosed that her indeterminate external genitalia were the result of a rare genetic disorder of the adrenal gland, the so-called congenital adrenal hyperplasia, or CAH.



"My childhood and teenage development was often agonizing because I did not really know what was wrong with me and where I belonged," Voelling said in a recent interview with NBC News.



Following a push from various human rights groups, Germany‘s government commissioned its National Ethics Council in December 2010 to consider the issue and come up with recommendations on how to identify intersexuals so they could live with greater dignity. The council, which in February of this year released its recommendations, even grappled with the question of whether or not a “third sex” should be introduced.



Invasive surgery



For Voelling, her gender issues were rarely discussed in her family growing up in a small town in a rural area of western Germany since her parents were convinced that they were raising a male child. Yet, in school, she would often be reminded of her ambivalence, when she played soccer with the "other boys," but also felt very much integrated in the girls clique.

She was experiencing an inner conflict that is rather common among intersexuals, or so-called differences of sex development (DSD) affected individuals, experts say.



"By the mid 90s, the first intersexual patients started seeking psychological help at our offices and most of them were preoccupied with feelings of shame, humiliation and a burdening tabooization of their problems," said Dr. Sophinette Becker, a sexologist and psychologist from Frankfurt.



For Voelling, her emotional trauma grew significantly larger at age 18, when physical scars were added in an unnecessary operation.



After being admitted to a local hospital for an appendix surgery, doctors diagnosed that their patient had mixed male-female genitals and an atrophied reproductive system.



But, when the young adult landed on the operating table, the surgeon found a full set of female reproductive organs, including an intact womb and ovaries.



Without consent from the patient, the organs were removed.



"I never received a truthful explanation of my condition and after the operation I felt a lot of physical and emotional pain for many years," Voelling said.



"Some 95 percent of all intersexuals systematically undergo genital surgery and other interventions without medical informed consent and without clear scientific proof," said Lucie Veith, the head of "Intersexuelle Menschen eV" in Hamburg, a group that represents hermaphrodites in Germany.



Gratification after legal battle



Only a couple of years later, Voelling also started receiving the regular administration of testosterone, or steroid male hormones.



"For 27 years, I was more or less exposed to severe doping," Voelling said.



"At age 47, when I felt more like a woman than a man anyway, I said enough is enough," she added.



Today, intersexual activists are trying to educate the medical community, affected families and the public about the often harsh consequences of genital reconstruction surgery and other severe medical interventions.



"These massive medical interferences plunge the intersexed child into total imbalance and lead to irreversible damages," said Veith, whose organization has nearly 600 members in Germany.



In 2008, Voelling decided to take her case to court and sued the doctor that had removed her female reproduction organs over unlawful intervention.



In its verdict, the court ordered the surgeon to pay 100,000 euro, (approximately $133,000) in compensation for performing an operation converting a hermaphrodite into a man without consent.



"I felt very relieved and it was really more of a moral reparation than anything else, but it unfortunately did not have consequences for the legal rights of intersexuals," said Voelling. She officially changed her gender from male to female, as well as her name from Thomas to Christiane, in a long bureaucratic process that same year.



Preparing legal framework



While experts say that Voelling's case is legally unique and will not set a precedent, the topic nevertheless started to receive more public attention after she wrote a book called "I was man and woman – My Life as an Intersexual.“



Despite some disagreements with the recommendations of Germany’s National Ethics Council released last month, Voelling and other intersexuals hope that the council’s recommendations will help give their status a legal framework in the future.



"In our recommendation to the German government earlier this year, the main message was that intersexuals are different from other human beings, but they need to be respected and belong in the center of our society," said psychologist Dr. Michael Wunder, a member of the German National Ethics Council.



Because irreversible medical interventions of gender assignment in people with ambiguous genitalia are typically conducted during early childhood years, the German Ethics Council determined that these operations present an infringement of the right to physical integrity, thus a violation of basic human rights.



The Ethics Board also said that "a non-justifiable encroachment on the personal rights and the right to equal treatment is present when people who cannot be assigned as ‘female’ or ‘male’ because of their physical condition are legally compelled to assign themselves to either category in the civil registry."



Following Australia's example, the German Ethics Council recommended that in addition to the registration of "female" or "male," the German government should introduce the category "other" or should allow a “no entry,” until the affected person have made a personal decision themselves.



Last September, Australia introduced new guidelines, which allow its citizens to change the sex details on their passport to female (F), male (M) or indeterminate (X).



"This amendment makes life easier and significantly reduces the administrative burden for sex and gender diverse people who want a passport that reflects their gender and physical appearance," said Australian Foreign Minister Kevin Rudd.



In Germany, rights activists, representatives from the Ethics Council and intersexuals now hope that German lawmakers will soon implement regulations, which will help to protect the rights of hermaphrodites and remove discrimination on the grounds of gender identity and sexual orientation.


I'll note that the article frequently uses the archaic term "hermaphrodite" instead of "intersexual".
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Old March 30th, 2012, 10:58 AM   #2
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This story will freak out the wingnuts who imagine everyone fits into one of two genders, and who want everyone forced into rigid gender roles and gender identity:


How ridiculous to think everyone fits into one of two genders.
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Old March 30th, 2012, 11:05 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by gary View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by skrekk' timestamp='1333133649' post='393038

This story will freak out the wingnuts who imagine everyone fits into one of two genders, and who want everyone forced into rigid gender roles and gender identity:
How ridiculous to think everyone fits into one of two genders.


Indeed it is, and it's a mistake you frequently make. From a comment in the article:



Quote:
Gender is not as simple as what equipment and chromosomes you have or what your parents would prefer you act like. Serious harm has been caused to innocent people because of others not understanding just how complex gender is. There is:

Gender Identity- Do you feel, think, male or female or even a little of both in your inner-self consciousness

Gender Biology- Do you have XX, XY or a combination of both, do you have penis, vagina, testes, ovaries, or a combination of both or none at all.

Gender Role- Do you identify more with and feel more fulfilled by the gender role (in your particular culture) of men or women or a little of both?

Gender Attraction- Are you sexually attracted to men or women or both?

All four factors are indiscriminate and interplay with one another to form any combination. And when we only recognize two distinct narrow moulds we leave out a wide cross-section of the population.
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Old March 30th, 2012, 11:11 AM   #4
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Well obviously these people are of the Devil and they need religious intervention.
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Old March 30th, 2012, 11:12 AM   #5
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Even your gay-loving APA considers transsexualism as Gender identity disorder:



Gender identity disorder is a conflict between a person's actual physical gender and the gender that person identifies himself or herself as. For example, a person identified as a boy may actually feel and act like a girl. The person experiences significant discomfort with the biological sex they were born.



It's not a joke nor is it anything to be celebrated or encouraged



It's a sad situation for people who suffer this way and even sadder for people like the hermaphrodite in your article.



It's also sad that homosexuals want to embrace transsexualism and make it part of their cause, it does you more harm than good.
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Old March 30th, 2012, 11:17 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gary View Post
Even your gay-loving APA considers transsexualism as Gender identity disorder:



Gender identity disorder is a conflict between a person's actual physical gender and the gender that person identifies himself or herself as. For example, a person identified as a boy may actually feel and act like a girl. The person experiences significant discomfort with the biological sex they were born.



It's not a joke nor is it anything to be celebrated or encouraged



It's a sad situation for people who suffer this way and even sadder for people like the hermaphrodite in your article.



It's also sad that homosexuals want to embrace transsexualism and make it part of their cause, it does you more harm than good.


It is a disorder, but it doesn't mean you force these people into one gender or another.



Only a moron bigot would suggest that last part. Bringing attention to these people and what is best for them in a civil, free and fair society is what everyone should be doing....but you would rather go the good "Christian" route and foment the stigma and condemn them from your pulpit.



Is hatred painful on your level?
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Old March 30th, 2012, 11:20 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by gary View Post
It's not a joke nor is it anything to be celebrated or encouraged


How exactly does one "encourage intersexuality"?



Apparently there are only two choices in your universe - encouragement or condemnation (and the discrimination which results).
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Old March 30th, 2012, 11:24 AM   #8
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I used to talk online with a woman who was born with both a penis and a vagina. And various other abnormalities, I think. Her parents and doctor decided to delete the female organs and never tell her.



She found out when she was an adult and decided to have sex-change therapy. She was very pissed off about the surgical procedures that were done on her as an infant. As any reasonable person could understand, I think.



She works as a volunteer for an advocacy group that seeks to persuade doctors that intersexed babies should be left intact as they are born until they are old enough to express themselves as one gender or the other or to choose not to express a gender.
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Old March 30th, 2012, 11:26 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gary View Post
Even your gay-loving APA considers transsexualism as Gender identity disorder:



Gender identity disorder is a conflict between a person's actual physical gender and the gender that person identifies himself or herself as. For example, a person identified as a boy may actually feel and act like a girl. The person experiences significant discomfort with the biological sex they were born.



It's not a joke nor is it anything to be celebrated or encouraged



It's a sad situation for people who suffer this way and even sadder for people like the hermaphrodite in your article.



It's also sad that homosexuals want to embrace transsexualism and make it part of their cause, it does you more harm than good.


I would be nice if you refrained from commenting until you got a clue.
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Old March 30th, 2012, 11:37 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skrekk View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by gary' timestamp='1333134759' post='393054

It's not a joke nor is it anything to be celebrated or encouraged


How exactly does one "encourage intersexuality"?



Apparently there are only two choices in your universe - encouragement or condemnation (and the discrimination which results).


Apparently his all powerful pretend deity has granted these people both genitalia, how does the bigot reconcile that?



For a god to be so intertwined in my personal life to care who I marry, he must have been able to prevent this kind of thing from occurring in the development of the fetus that he is also personally invested in to the point where we must prevent a woman from ever having an abortion.



It's fun to watch religiously deluded idiots fall all over themselves trying to defend these insane contradictions.



Maybe gary has a talking snake who can give him these answers.
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Old March 30th, 2012, 11:46 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knowuryder View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by gary' timestamp='1333134759' post='393054

Even your gay-loving APA considers transsexualism as Gender identity disorder:



Gender identity disorder is a conflict between a person's actual physical gender and the gender that person identifies himself or herself as. For example, a person identified as a boy may actually feel and act like a girl. The person experiences significant discomfort with the biological sex they were born.



It's not a joke nor is it anything to be celebrated or encouraged



It's a sad situation for people who suffer this way and even sadder for people like the hermaphrodite in your article.



It's also sad that homosexuals want to embrace transsexualism and make it part of their cause, it does you more harm than good.


It is a disorder, but it doesn't mean you force these people into one gender or another.



Only a moron bigot would suggest that last part. Bringing attention to these people and what is best for them in a civil, free and fair society is what everyone should be doing....but you would rather go the good "Christian" route and foment the stigma and condemn them from your pulpit.



Is hatred painful on your level?




How was I condemning them when I said:



"It's not a joke nor is it anything to be celebrated or encouraged




It's a sad situation for people who suffer this way and even sadder for people like the hermaphrodite in your article."
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Old March 30th, 2012, 11:51 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gary View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by knowuryder' timestamp='1333135033' post='393059

[quote name='gary' timestamp='1333134759' post='393054']

Even your gay-loving APA considers transsexualism as Gender identity disorder:



Gender identity disorder is a conflict between a person's actual physical gender and the gender that person identifies himself or herself as. For example, a person identified as a boy may actually feel and act like a girl. The person experiences significant discomfort with the biological sex they were born.



It's not a joke nor is it anything to be celebrated or encouraged



It's a sad situation for people who suffer this way and even sadder for people like the hermaphrodite in your article.



It's also sad that homosexuals want to embrace transsexualism and make it part of their cause, it does you more harm than good.


It is a disorder, but it doesn't mean you force these people into one gender or another.



Only a moron bigot would suggest that last part. Bringing attention to these people and what is best for them in a civil, free and fair society is what everyone should be doing....but you would rather go the good "Christian" route and foment the stigma and condemn them from your pulpit.



Is hatred painful on your level?




How was I condemning them when I said:



"It's not a joke nor is it anything to be celebrated or encouraged




It's a sad situation for people who suffer this way and even sadder for people like the hermaphrodite in your article."

[/quote]



Gary, how does one "encourage intersexuality"?
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Old March 30th, 2012, 11:57 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skrekk View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by gary' timestamp='1333136814' post='393076

[quote name='knowuryder' timestamp='1333135033' post='393059']

[quote name='gary' timestamp='1333134759' post='393054']

Even your gay-loving APA considers transsexualism as Gender identity disorder:



Gender identity disorder is a conflict between a person's actual physical gender and the gender that person identifies himself or herself as. For example, a person identified as a boy may actually feel and act like a girl. The person experiences significant discomfort with the biological sex they were born.



It's not a joke nor is it anything to be celebrated or encouraged



It's a sad situation for people who suffer this way and even sadder for people like the hermaphrodite in your article.



It's also sad that homosexuals want to embrace transsexualism and make it part of their cause, it does you more harm than good.


It is a disorder, but it doesn't mean you force these people into one gender or another.



Only a moron bigot would suggest that last part. Bringing attention to these people and what is best for them in a civil, free and fair society is what everyone should be doing....but you would rather go the good "Christian" route and foment the stigma and condemn them from your pulpit.



Is hatred painful on your level?




How was I condemning them when I said:



"It's not a joke nor is it anything to be celebrated or encouraged




It's a sad situation for people who suffer this way and even sadder for people like the hermaphrodite in your article."

[/quote]



Gary, how does one "encourage intersexuality"?

[/quote]







By pretending it isn't a mental disorder.



By helping to perpetuate the delusion



By hijacking it as yet another gay cause celebre that we must cherish and provide with "rights"
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Old March 30th, 2012, 12:05 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gary View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by skrekk' timestamp='1333137109' post='393082

[quote name='gary' timestamp='1333136814' post='393076']

[quote name='knowuryder' timestamp='1333135033' post='393059']

[quote name='gary' timestamp='1333134759' post='393054']

Even your gay-loving APA considers transsexualism as Gender identity disorder:



Gender identity disorder is a conflict between a person's actual physical gender and the gender that person identifies himself or herself as. For example, a person identified as a boy may actually feel and act like a girl. The person experiences significant discomfort with the biological sex they were born.



It's not a joke nor is it anything to be celebrated or encouraged



It's a sad situation for people who suffer this way and even sadder for people like the hermaphrodite in your article.



It's also sad that homosexuals want to embrace transsexualism and make it part of their cause, it does you more harm than good.


It is a disorder, but it doesn't mean you force these people into one gender or another.



Only a moron bigot would suggest that last part. Bringing attention to these people and what is best for them in a civil, free and fair society is what everyone should be doing....but you would rather go the good "Christian" route and foment the stigma and condemn them from your pulpit.



Is hatred painful on your level?




How was I condemning them when I said:



"It's not a joke nor is it anything to be celebrated or encouraged




It's a sad situation for people who suffer this way and even sadder for people like the hermaphrodite in your article."

[/quote]



Gary, how does one "encourage intersexuality"?

[/quote]







By pretending it isn't a mental disorder.



By helping to perpetuate the delusion



By hijacking it as yet another gay cause celebre that we must cherish and provide with "rights"

[/quote]

When one is born with both a penis and a vagina or a uterus and testicles, it is hardly a mental disorder.



Please shut the fuck up until you go buy a clue.
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Old March 30th, 2012, 12:08 PM   #15
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This thread is about INTERSEXUALS.



Please do not allow trolls or ignorant fools to derail it to the discussion of transgenders or homosexuals.
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Old March 30th, 2012, 12:24 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gary View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by knowuryder' timestamp='1333135033' post='393059

[quote name='gary' timestamp='1333134759' post='393054']

Even your gay-loving APA considers transsexualism as Gender identity disorder:



Gender identity disorder is a conflict between a person's actual physical gender and the gender that person identifies himself or herself as. For example, a person identified as a boy may actually feel and act like a girl. The person experiences significant discomfort with the biological sex they were born.



It's not a joke nor is it anything to be celebrated or encouraged



It's a sad situation for people who suffer this way and even sadder for people like the hermaphrodite in your article.



It's also sad that homosexuals want to embrace transsexualism and make it part of their cause, it does you more harm than good.


It is a disorder, but it doesn't mean you force these people into one gender or another.



Only a moron bigot would suggest that last part. Bringing attention to these people and what is best for them in a civil, free and fair society is what everyone should be doing....but you would rather go the good "Christian" route and foment the stigma and condemn them from your pulpit.



Is hatred painful on your level?




How was I condemning them when I said:



"It's not a joke nor is it anything to be celebrated or encouraged




It's a sad situation for people who suffer this way and even sadder for people like the hermaphrodite in your article."

[/quote]



I would rather be a hermaphrodite than you.



Miserable bigot.
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Old March 30th, 2012, 12:33 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyCrickets View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by gary' timestamp='1333137471' post='393086

[quote name='skrekk' timestamp='1333137109' post='393082']

[quote name='gary' timestamp='1333136814' post='393076']

[quote name='knowuryder' timestamp='1333135033' post='393059']

[quote name='gary' timestamp='1333134759' post='393054']

Even your gay-loving APA considers transsexualism as Gender identity disorder:



Gender identity disorder is a conflict between a person's actual physical gender and the gender that person identifies himself or herself as. For example, a person identified as a boy may actually feel and act like a girl. The person experiences significant discomfort with the biological sex they were born.



It's not a joke nor is it anything to be celebrated or encouraged



It's a sad situation for people who suffer this way and even sadder for people like the hermaphrodite in your article.



It's also sad that homosexuals want to embrace transsexualism and make it part of their cause, it does you more harm than good.


It is a disorder, but it doesn't mean you force these people into one gender or another.



Only a moron bigot would suggest that last part. Bringing attention to these people and what is best for them in a civil, free and fair society is what everyone should be doing....but you would rather go the good "Christian" route and foment the stigma and condemn them from your pulpit.



Is hatred painful on your level?




How was I condemning them when I said:



"It's not a joke nor is it anything to be celebrated or encouraged




It's a sad situation for people who suffer this way and even sadder for people like the hermaphrodite in your article."

[/quote]



Gary, how does one "encourage intersexuality"?

[/quote]







By pretending it isn't a mental disorder.



By helping to perpetuate the delusion



By hijacking it as yet another gay cause celebre that we must cherish and provide with "rights"

[/quote]

When one is born with both a penis and a vagina or a uterus and testicles, it is hardly a mental disorder.



Please shut the fuck up until you go buy a clue.

[/quote]





I agree. It's a sad situation as I already stated
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Old March 30th, 2012, 12:34 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyCrickets View Post
This tread is about INTERSEXUALS.



Please do not allow trolls or ignorant fools to derail it to the discussion of transgenders or homosexuals.




Speaking of trolls, here is shriek's inflammatory intro:



This story will freak out the wingnuts who imagine everyone fits into one of two genders, and who want everyone forced into rigid gender roles and gender identity:
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Old March 30th, 2012, 12:51 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gary View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyCrickets' timestamp='1333138085' post='393093

This tread is about INTERSEXUALS.



Please do not allow trolls or ignorant fools to derail it to the discussion of transgenders or homosexuals.




Speaking of trolls, here is shriek's inflammatory intro:



This story will freak out the wingnuts who imagine everyone fits into one of two genders, and who want everyone forced into rigid gender roles and gender identity:


...and he was right as evidenced by your subsequent hysterical and nonsensical posts.
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Old March 30th, 2012, 02:18 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gary View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyCrickets' timestamp='1333137943' post='393092

[quote name='gary' timestamp='1333137471' post='393086']

[quote name='skrekk' timestamp='1333137109' post='393082']

[quote name='gary' timestamp='1333136814' post='393076']

[quote name='knowuryder' timestamp='1333135033' post='393059']

[quote name='gary' timestamp='1333134759' post='393054']

Even your gay-loving APA considers transsexualism as Gender identity disorder:



Gender identity disorder is a conflict between a person's actual physical gender and the gender that person identifies himself or herself as. For example, a person identified as a boy may actually feel and act like a girl. The person experiences significant discomfort with the biological sex they were born.



It's not a joke nor is it anything to be celebrated or encouraged



It's a sad situation for people who suffer this way and even sadder for people like the hermaphrodite in your article.



It's also sad that homosexuals want to embrace transsexualism and make it part of their cause, it does you more harm than good.


It is a disorder, but it doesn't mean you force these people into one gender or another.



Only a moron bigot would suggest that last part. Bringing attention to these people and what is best for them in a civil, free and fair society is what everyone should be doing....but you would rather go the good "Christian" route and foment the stigma and condemn them from your pulpit.



Is hatred painful on your level?




How was I condemning them when I said:



"It's not a joke nor is it anything to be celebrated or encouraged




It's a sad situation for people who suffer this way and even sadder for people like the hermaphrodite in your article."

[/quote]



Gary, how does one "encourage intersexuality"?

[/quote]







By pretending it isn't a mental disorder.



By helping to perpetuate the delusion



By hijacking it as yet another gay cause celebre that we must cherish and provide with "rights"

[/quote]

When one is born with both a penis and a vagina or a uterus and testicles, it is hardly a mental disorder.



Please shut the fuck up until you go buy a clue.

[/quote]





I agree. It's a sad situation as I already stated

[/quote]



Don't you have enough in your head to buy a clue?!?
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