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Old August 26th, 2015, 10:52 AM   #21
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Well first, we need to discuss what is actually "normal", do we not ?? We have never gotten away from our puritanical roots. Modern Christianity with it's constant obsession with all things sexual has perpetuated the perception.

If you walk up to the average person on the street, put them "on the record" concerning their sex life, you're going to get the standard, "safe and normal" answers to any questions you might ask.

However, anonymous surveys and studies have repeatedly shown a very significant divide between what we perceive as "normal" and what actually happens when people get together for sex. There's an even greater divide between what actually happens and what people fantasize about.

The Ashley Madison breach proves this. They had 37 MILLION users and that's just one website. There are thousands of websites dedicated to every preference, fantasy and fetish know to God and man. 50 Shades of Grey has sold 100 MILLION copies. 45 Million in the US alone. That means 40% plus of the adult females in this country have read that book !!

I'd bet my next paycheck, if we could see what your family, close friends, church members and coworkers were actually doing in the bedroom (and God knows where else) YOU'D be shocked and amazed !!!! If you learned their deepest darkest fantasies, you'd probably have a heart attack.

My point being, there is a huge divide between what we perceive as normal and the reality of our sex lives. If this is true, then is being gay or even transgendered really that far out of the norm ??



Well, sorry, bad writing there. I wasn't referring to Jenner specifically as an IT !! Rereading what I wrote I can see where you would think that.

I was merely asking when its (meaning it is, referring to an activity) by a consenting adult, why do you care ?



You're comparing apples and watermelons there. I care about the homeless because I have compassion for people who can't help themselves. Being mentally ill to the point of being unable care for themselves, is beyond their control. Being transgendered doesn't debilitate you. I know a TG. She would rather be a he. He went to college, has a job, pays his rent, has a girlfriend, and is other wise completely normal and surprising well adjusted. Of course he had the luxury of an accepting and supportive family. Many gays and TG do not.



And that just confounds the hell out of you doesn't it ??? Which further proves my point. There are people right here are this board that paint the opposite party with some very large brushes. No one is ALWAYS this, or ALWAYS that.

I care about the homeless, I care about the environment and I damned sure don't want the local Baptist preacher in the public schools forcing my kids to pray. But, I'm also very anti-illegal immigrant and, as you pointed out, I do own guns and have my carry permit.

There are some things I just don't worry about because they are NONE of my business. People's sex lives are one of those things. As long as you aren't insisting I join you, or worse passing laws saying I must join you, I truly don't care what you and your chosen partner do. Likewise if I and a consenting female chose to engage in a little fantasy play, WHY would you object ? How is our activity going to have an effect on your life ??
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Well first, we need to discuss what is actually "normal", do we not ?? We have never gotten away from our puritanical roots. Modern Christianity with it's constant obsession with all things sexual has perpetuated the perception.
So went from rather or not a desire to have your sex organs removed and altered to that of a different sex is a mental illness or not to lets blame the Christians. So much for a open convo about transgender and mental capacity, suicide rates and percentage of them in the sex trade. A lot easier to holler its the Christians fault.

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I'd bet my next paycheck, if we could see what your family, close friends, church members and coworkers were actually doing in the bedroom (and God knows where else) YOU'D be shocked and amazed !!!! If you learned their deepest darkest fantasies, you'd probably have a heart attack.
What does that have to do with the desire to be a transgender person? You really do not see a difference in kinky sex between two people and deciding to get have your sex organs removed? Your jumping all over the place to do exactly what I said from the beginning. Avoid talking about transgender people and why they have a high suicide rate and percentage in the sex trade. You are deflecting with 50 shades of gray and sex lives. So, basically you think its normal and rational to have your sex organs removed and replaced in order to get off sexually. That is a interesting perspective to say the least.
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Old August 26th, 2015, 11:15 AM   #22
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So, basically you think its normal and rational to have your sex organs removed and replaced in order to get off sexually. That is a interesting perspective to say the least.
The fact that it's not 'normal and rational' for you does not preclude the fact that it might be 'normal and rational' for someone else.
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Old August 26th, 2015, 11:25 AM   #23
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I actually think they should.
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Old August 26th, 2015, 02:28 PM   #24
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So went from rather or not a desire to have your sex organs removed and altered to that of a different sex is a mental illness or not to lets blame the Christians. So much for a open convo about transgender and mental capacity, suicide rates and percentage of them in the sex trade. A lot easier to holler its the Christians fault.
True or False ????? Christianity plays a substantial, even disproportionate, role in what American society "portrays" as normal and acceptable ????

True or False ?? Gays and transgendered are frequently targets of Christianity's hatred and loathing ???

Do the likes of Falwell (may he burn in hell) Robertson and a long list of other "religious leaders" not blame gays, transgendered and just about anyone else they consider different, for everything from tornados and hurricanes to stock market crashes and terrorist attacks ??

Maybe you're too senile to remember, but I clearly recall Jerry Falwell and Robertson on TV blaming pagans, abortionists, feminists, gays and lesbians for bringing on the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington.

What you call an "attack on Christianity" I call a simple statement of truth !!

I believe, if you actually read my earlier posts, I have offered up some very plausible theories as to why TG's might have both a higher suicide rate and a disproportionate representation in the sex trades.

As I pointed out, if someone from mainstream society can wind up a prostitute, how much easier is it for someone already on the fringe of society ?? Prove me wrong !!


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What does that have to do with the desire to be a transgender person? You really do not see a difference in kinky sex between two people and deciding to get have your sex organs removed? Your jumping all over the place to do exactly what I said from the beginning. Avoid talking about transgender people and why they have a high suicide rate and percentage in the sex trade. You are deflecting with 50 shades of gray and sex lives. So, basically you think its normal and rational to have your sex organs removed and replaced in order to get off sexually. That is a interesting perspective to say the least.
I can't imagine why someone would want a sex change. The first thing you lose is the ability to have an orgasm of any kind !! Being willing to give that up has to be driven by something very deep and serious. Which is exactly why, again as I have pointed out, the vast majority of people seeking such changes are put through rigorous mental testing and made to go through a rather long, one to five year, process before the actual surgery. Plenty of time for them to change their minds.

The point I've been trying to make is this. IF we're going to judge a person's mental fitness based on what's considered "normal", then we MUST take a long, hard, deep and very honest look at what normal actually means.

Even if something is considered "abnormal", does that automatically make it bad ?? Does that automatically make it a defect ?? Does that automatically make it something we must treat or do something about ??

Or does it simply mean different ?? Just because you and I can't fathom the possibility, doesn't make it wrong. Our lack of understanding doesn't mean they are suffering from some mental defect.
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Old August 26th, 2015, 03:02 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by BubbaJones View Post
True or False ????? Christianity plays a substantial, even disproportionate, role in what American society "portrays" as normal and acceptable ????

True or False ?? Gays and transgendered are frequently targets of Christianity's hatred and loathing ???

Do the likes of Falwell (may he burn in hell) Robertson and a long list of other "religious leaders" not blame gays, transgendered and just about anyone else they consider different, for everything from tornados and hurricanes to stock market crashes and terrorist attacks ??

Maybe you're too senile to remember, but I clearly recall Jerry Falwell and Robertson on TV blaming pagans, abortionists, feminists, gays and lesbians for bringing on the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington.

What you call an "attack on Christianity" I call a simple statement of truth !!

I believe, if you actually read my earlier posts, I have offered up some very plausible theories as to why TG's might have both a higher suicide rate and a disproportionate representation in the sex trades.

As I pointed out, if someone from mainstream society can wind up a prostitute, how much easier is it for someone already on the fringe of society ?? Prove me wrong !!




I can't imagine why someone would want a sex change. The first thing you lose is the ability to have an orgasm of any kind !! Being willing to give that up has to be driven by something very deep and serious. Which is exactly why, again as I have pointed out, the vast majority of people seeking such changes are put through rigorous mental testing and made to go through a rather long, one to five year, process before the actual surgery. Plenty of time for them to change their minds.

The point I've been trying to make is this. IF we're going to judge a person's mental fitness based on what's considered "normal", then we MUST take a long, hard, deep and very honest look at what normal actually means.



Or does it simply mean different ?? Just because you and I can't fathom the possibility, doesn't make it wrong. Our lack of understanding doesn't mean they are suffering from some mental defect.

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True or False ?? Gays and transgendered are frequently targets of Christianity's hatred and loathing ???
True. Jerry Falwell and all Christians affect homosexuals every day in America. It is amazing they can even leave their own homes for all the persecution. Since the law requires them to adhere to Christian belief an all.

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Do the likes of Falwell (may he burn in hell) Robertson and a long list of other "religious leaders" not blame gays, transgendered and just about anyone else they consider different, for everything from tornados and hurricanes to stock market crashes and terrorist attacks ??
Yes exactly they do. Its on tv all the time and is mainstreamed to everyone. I cant even get up in the morning without seeing Jerry Fallwell or West Boro Baptist Church blaming gay people for something. Its 24-7 non stop. There is no escaping it. That has to be the reason transgender people have such high suicide rates and involve themselves in the sex trade at a higher percentage. Brilliant. Of course it is!

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Even if something is considered "abnormal", does that automatically make it bad ?? Does that automatically make it a defect ?? Does that automatically make it something we must treat or do something about ??
No it doesn't make it bad necessarily. Having appendages removed for no sound medical reason other than I feel like I am a girl/boy seems rather excessive. We freak shit over little emo kids cutting away with razor blades but celebrate someone having their sex organs removed.

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The point I've been trying to make is this. IF we're going to judge a person's mental fitness based on what's considered "normal", then we MUST take a long, hard, deep and very honest look at what normal actually means.
Why were taking that honest look, we should look honestly at the obvious. Transgender, high suicide rate. Transgender excessive low self esteem. I really do not believe that is Jerry Fallwells fault or Jesus or Buddha, the Easter Bunny, Santa Clause etc.etc.etc.
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Old August 26th, 2015, 04:12 PM   #26
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Is it a mental illnesses? Maybe. I guess that all depends on how we are to go about defining "mental illness" I would say having an imaginary friend who whispered in your ear to blow things up or that he was going to lay waste to the planet but come down and swoop up his homies would be considered "mentally ill"

Are these people struggling desperately trying to feel at home in their own skin? Most likely. Should you go out of your way to make their transition easier and help them feel as a welcome part of society. From one human to another I would hope that is a natural reaction but if it's not and for one reason or another it makes you uncomfortable or angry then I guess the most we can ask for is you try not to make their already difficult life any harder. It is their bodies. If we don't own the rights to our own skin then what do we really even own.
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Old August 26th, 2015, 07:02 PM   #27
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A foetus starts off as female. Half of all foetuses stay female and ultimately develop into a girl. The other half are modified and ‘masculinised’ by the action of various hormones and ultimately develop into a boy. Very rarely, this process is only partial, so a fetus might have its brain masculinised but not the body, or, more commonly, the body masculinised but the brain remains female. This leads to the phenomena of a “woman stuck in a mans body”.

The individual this occurs in is aware of it from very early on. As you can imagine, life is pretty tough. They get mixed messages from pretty much everyone all the time, they have to ask am I a boy, or a girl, or gay, or what the hell is happening??. When puberty hits things suddenly get worse as their body starts to change, from their perspective, in horrible ways. Its no surprise they often have emotional baggage as adults. Add to that the prejudice they often suffer.

Human being s are defined by our brains. If we have a womans brain, we have a woman. If this womans brain is in a male body, the next step is correcting the abnormality by feminising their body, thereby completing the process that should have happened in utero. But before any surgeon will operate, it requires living as a woman, taking hormones, changing names, all while still actually being ‘male’. It is hard to get employment in this situation, and its rare for any health plan in the world to cover gender reassignment surgery that costs many thousands of dollars. Enter prostitution. Unless you have an understanding employer or rich parents, it’s the only way of paying for it.

Ultimately the rate of suicide in such people is a bit higher than average, but not a lot higher. The rate of suicide attempts is much higher than average, but its about the same as the rate of suicide attempts in homosexual individuals. And its for the same reason – rejection by family. If you look at those homosexual/ transgender individuals who came out and were accepted and supported by their immediate family, the suicide rate is only slightly increased.
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Old August 26th, 2015, 07:27 PM   #28
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A foetus starts off as female. Half of all foetuses stay female and ultimately develop into a girl. The other half are modified and ‘masculinised’ by the action of various hormones and ultimately develop into a boy. Very rarely, this process is only partial, so a fetus might have its brain masculinised but not the body, or, more commonly, the body masculinised but the brain remains female. This leads to the phenomena of a “woman stuck in a mans body”.

The individual this occurs in is aware of it from very early on. As you can imagine, life is pretty tough. They get mixed messages from pretty much everyone all the time, they have to ask am I a boy, or a girl, or gay, or what the hell is happening??. When puberty hits things suddenly get worse as their body starts to change, from their perspective, in horrible ways. Its no surprise they often have emotional baggage as adults. Add to that the prejudice they often suffer.

Human being s are defined by our brains. If we have a womans brain, we have a woman. If this womans brain is in a male body, the next step is correcting the abnormality by feminising their body, thereby completing the process that should have happened in utero. But before any surgeon will operate, it requires living as a woman, taking hormones, changing names, all while still actually being ‘male’. It is hard to get employment in this situation, and its rare for any health plan in the world to cover gender reassignment surgery that costs many thousands of dollars. Enter prostitution. Unless you have an understanding employer or rich parents, it’s the only way of paying for it.

Ultimately the rate of suicide in such people is a bit higher than average, but not a lot higher. The rate of suicide attempts is much higher than average, but its about the same as the rate of suicide attempts in homosexual individuals. And its for the same reason – rejection by family. If you look at those homosexual/ transgender individuals who came out and were accepted and supported by their immediate family, the suicide rate is only slightly increased.
There is a great deal of sense in what you are saying, except how does one define a "woman's brain"? If we are born tabula rasa, as clinical psychologists have led us to believe, then at what point does a brain manifest itself as "male" or "female"? Is it not post partum? You make a sensible argument, I'm not sure about clinical evidence of it other than chromosome development, but in the end you're really just choosing one side in the ongoing debate of nature v nurture.

Also, I'm not convinced that a "slight increase" in suicide post sex-change operation with overwhelming family support represents any great gain. A male who hates his own body enough to undergo a complete sexual reconstruction might find out, after it's become irreversible, that being a woman is no great picnic either, only now it's too late to switch back and he/she hates the new body just as much or more. Society may not be entirely to blame for such a person's unhappiness with himself. He/she may be the victim of his/her own malcontented disposition.
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Old August 27th, 2015, 12:37 AM   #29
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There is a great deal of sense in what you are saying, except how does one define a "woman's brain"? If we are born tabula rasa, as clinical psychologists have led us to believe, then at what point does a brain manifest itself as "male" or "female"? Is it not post partum? You make a sensible argument, I'm not sure about clinical evidence of it other than chromosome development, but in the end you're really just choosing one side in the ongoing debate of nature v nurture.

Also, I'm not convinced that a "slight increase" in suicide post sex-change operation with overwhelming family support represents any great gain. A male who hates his own body enough to undergo a complete sexual reconstruction might find out, after it's become irreversible, that being a woman is no great picnic either, only now it's too late to switch back and he/she hates the new body just as much or more. Society may not be entirely to blame for such a person's unhappiness with himself. He/she may be the victim of his/her own malcontented disposition.
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Old August 27th, 2015, 04:24 PM   #30
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There is a great deal of sense in what you are saying, except how does one define a "woman's brain"? If we are born tabula rasa, as clinical psychologists have led us to believe, then at what point does a brain manifest itself as "male" or "female"? Is it not post partum? You make a sensible argument, I'm not sure about clinical evidence of it other than chromosome development, but in the end you're really just choosing one side in the ongoing debate of nature v nurture.
we are not born 'tabula rasa', thats an outdated idea. we are born each unique and with a great capacity to learn, but with a significant ammount of our brains capacity predetermined. this might suck, but thats tough, its reality.

in most cases those people who are chromosomally XX are female and those who are XY are male. but there are rare occasions where the Y chromosome is 'inactive' and the individual can be XY female. and there are rare occasions where an X chromosome carries genes usually found on the Y chromosome, so that particular X chromosome acts like a Y chromosome, and the individual is XX male. but we have scanning technology that can identify the gender of a brain, but thats usually not needed because we can just ask the individual "what gender are you?".

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Also, I'm not convinced that a "slight increase" in suicide post sex-change operation with overwhelming family support represents any great gain. A male who hates his own body enough to undergo a complete sexual reconstruction might find out, after it's become irreversible, that being a woman is no great picnic either, only now it's too late to switch back and he/she hates the new body just as much or more. Society may not be entirely to blame for such a person's unhappiness with himself. He/she may be the victim of his/her own malcontented disposition.
wrong premise. there is a large increase in suicidal ideation, attempts, psychiatric problems, etc, pre gender reassignment surgery. then there is a significant improvement in all of this once surgery has been done. the rates of psychiatric problems dont drop to normal levels, but they do drop. as i said, when you grow up the 'wrong' gender it is hard, it leaves scars, there is baggage you carry as an adult, even post surgery.

case by case, yes, there are certainly individuals who follow the course you just outlined here. there are also people who have surgery and find it a tremendous relief and they are much happier and the suicidal ideas disappear. and there are those who ponder surgery but dont go all the way and just use hormones and other measures. and there are some who suicide out of the blue because of being transgender, but they have not ever told anybody, so we dont know that being transgender was the reason.

suicide is rare, which makes it hard to study. suicide in a small population like the transgender community is very rare, only a handful of actual instances, so research is sparse. what the research does show is that psychiatric problems in transgendered people pre surgery are common, this reduces post surgery, but not to baseline levels.
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