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Old November 9th, 2017, 08:28 AM   #61
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Nonsense We are discussing the rights of American citizens. There WAS no America prior to the winning of our revolution and the adoption of our Constitution. We were just a British colony subject to British laws.
Don't blame me for your lack of an education.

Our nation was founded on certain presuppositions that were unique and different from that of any prior nation. The Declaration of Independence states:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.-"

Of this document, Thomas Jefferson stated:

"The Declaration of Independence... [is the] declaratory charter of our rights, and of the rights of man." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Adams Wells, 1819.

Jefferson also stated:

"Nothing... is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man." --Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824

Our foundational principles state that man is born with Rights. Obviously they predate the Constitution. John Adams, second president of the United States once said:

"You have rights antecedent to all earthly governments; rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the Great Legislator of the Universe."

The founders of our Republic built our system of jurisprudence on the presupposition that your Creator (your God, whomever you deem that to be) bestowed upon you Rights that are above the law. Any prior laws that governed us were rendered moot in 1789 when the Constitution was adopted.

The earliest Courts, including the United States Supreme Court acknowledged Rights that are inherent, God given, unalienable, natural, and absolute.

Those are the facts, sir. If you choose to yell bullshit at them, be my guest, but it will not impact the fact that it is true.
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Old November 9th, 2017, 08:32 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Hollywood View Post
WTF is your people's obsession with Chicago? Yes, it's the 2nd largest city in the U.S. but you people seem just completely obsessed with it.
WHY do you seem to think that Chicago has the "strictest gun control in the nation?"
Just because you say that at every opportunity or what?
I understand Chicago is an embarrassment and Democrats don't want to talk about it. The reason democrats don't want to talk about it is because Chicago is a colossal glittering billboard for failed democrat policies on gun control. I could mention Baltimore, Detroit, St. Louis, Oakland, etc.
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Old November 9th, 2017, 08:40 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by discollector View Post
Don't blame me for your lack of an education.

Our nation was founded on certain presuppositions that were unique and different from that of any prior nation. The Declaration of Independence states:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.-"

Of this document, Thomas Jefferson stated:

"The Declaration of Independence... [is the] declaratory charter of our rights, and of the rights of man." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Adams Wells, 1819.

Jefferson also stated:

"Nothing... is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man." --Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824

Our foundational principles state that man is born with Rights. Obviously they predate the Constitution. John Adams, second president of the United States once said:

"You have rights antecedent to all earthly governments; rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the Great Legislator of the Universe."

The founders of our Republic built our system of jurisprudence on the presupposition that your Creator (your God, whomever you deem that to be) bestowed upon you Rights that are above the law. Any prior laws that governed us were rendered moot in 1789 when the Constitution was adopted.

The earliest Courts, including the United States Supreme Court acknowledged Rights that are inherent, God given, unalienable, natural, and absolute.

Those are the facts, sir. If you choose to yell bullshit at them, be my guest, but it will not impact the fact that it is true.
The DOI was basically a letter of intent, informing the Brits of what we intended to do and giving our stated justifications for wanting to do it.
Had the British Army kicked the shit out of Washington's troops, and the French failed to support our cause, all the signers of the DOI would have been hung and King George would have used the DOI for toilet paper.

You forget that the 18th century Kings claimed to rule over people by DIVINE RIGHT. In other words because God said so. The writers of the DOI simply played their own "God card" using the flowery language of their day.
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Old November 9th, 2017, 09:05 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by discollector View Post
Don't blame me for your lack of an education.

Our nation was founded on certain presuppositions that were unique and different from that of any prior nation. The Declaration of Independence states:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.-"

Of this document, Thomas Jefferson stated:

"The Declaration of Independence... [is the] declaratory charter of our rights, and of the rights of man." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Adams Wells, 1819.

Jefferson also stated:

"Nothing... is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man." --Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824

Our foundational principles state that man is born with Rights. Obviously they predate the Constitution. John Adams, second president of the United States once said:

"You have rights antecedent to all earthly governments; rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the Great Legislator of the Universe."
.
So your “God given rights” are what certain politicians decided they were.
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Old November 9th, 2017, 09:10 AM   #65
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and exactly who or what grants those inherent rights that you say the constitution forbids the government to infringe upon them?
god
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Old November 9th, 2017, 09:21 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Sensible View Post
Ok I have given to plenty of time to get your skulls full of mush together and come to a consensus.

What do you want to do? propose something! Gun confiscation? More meaningless laws, designed to make the average law abiding gun owner less safe?

Just give us the talking points if you can't come up with something.
We want to take all of the guns from the people and put them in the hands of the government because the state is our god. The state will protect us from ourselves. Nothing can go wrong w/ this idea....look a squirrel.

We need to band together and kneel during the national anthem and march to bring awareness to all of these racist cops that keep killing helpless minorities. Hands up dont shoot.
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Old November 9th, 2017, 09:25 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Sensible View Post
god
Interesting ?
Where in the bible does it state that man has the right to “Life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness”, let alone the right to bear arms ???
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Old November 9th, 2017, 09:32 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Hollywood View Post
The DOI was basically a letter of intent, informing the Brits of what we intended to do and giving our stated justifications for wanting to do it.
Had the British Army kicked the shit out of Washington's troops, and the French failed to support our cause, all the signers of the DOI would have been hung and King George would have used the DOI for toilet paper.

You forget that the 18th century Kings claimed to rule over people by DIVINE RIGHT. In other words because God said so. The writers of the DOI simply played their own "God card" using the flowery language of their day.
I guess, if you wanted to be a cynic, that's an opinion, but not very factual.

The Declaration of Independence, according to its author:

"The Declaration of Independence . . . [is the] declaratory charter of our rights, and the rights of man." Thomas Jefferson

So, excuse me, Hollyweird, but I'll take Jefferson's word over what you say the Declaration is about.

And, moving along, the "Divine Providence" to which the signers of the Declaration of Independence believed in prevailed and King George got his ass kicked instead. The faith of the signers was instrumental in bringing about the constitutional Republic we live under today AND is a factor in the Liberties and Freedoms you enjoy today.
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Old November 9th, 2017, 09:42 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by MichaelT View Post
Interesting ?
Where in the bible does it state that man has the right to “Life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness”, let alone the right to bear arms ???
Every page. The right to self defense is inherent.
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Old November 9th, 2017, 09:51 AM   #70
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So your “God given rights” are what certain politicians decided they were.
WRONG. Most of us here know your argument. It's all in your head; it's a social construct, blah, blah, blah.

Like it or not, America was founded by Christians and its values are consistent with biblical principles. Before you go there, I did not say we are a theocracy. We are not nor were we founded as such. But, our culture is inclusive of our Christian heritage.

As such, the founders concept of Liberty is predicated upon biblical principles.

On the issue of gun control, the Bible records an instance where Lot was taken captive and Abraham gathered together the modern equivalent of a citizen militia whereupon they secured Lot's release and brought back all the things seized by Lot's captors (see Genesis 14: 12 - 16)

In the 22nd chapter of Luke Jesus told his apostles to buy a sword. He told them to buy one even if they had to hock their robe in order to do so. When you study Scripture, it's pretty evident where we, as a nation, got our values from.

I get that you don't like Christians. I understand where you're coming from. Yet every civilization has some foundational principle upon which the concept of right and wrong is built. America's foundational principles are built on biblical principles and they have served us well for over 200 years.
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