Political Forums
Forum Notice

Go Back   Defending The Truth Political Forum > Political Issues > Healthcare

Healthcare Healthcare Forum - For topics and discussions about health care, health policies, and health care systems


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old December 30th, 2006, 05:36 AM   #1
Banned
 
alias's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,176
UK Muslim Hospital Workers Refuse to Wash Hands

UK Muslim Hospital Workers Refuse to Wash Hands

December 30, 2006 07:53 AM EST



By Sher Zieve – British hospital Muslim workers are refusing to wash their hands with required anti-bacterial disinfectant gels. The Muslims are protesting the practice on religious grounds, as the gels contain alcohol.



Anti-bacterial gels are used in hospitals to guard against “superbugs”, including Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus Aureus (MRSA) and Periventricular Leukomalacia (PVL). British healthcare workers said they were shocked to discover the practice of Muslim healthcare workers refusing to disinfect their hands before entering patient rooms.



NHS care assistant Theresa Poupa of London Chest Hospital said: “I could not believe it. The signs are large enough and clear enough but they [Muslim workers] just took no notice and walked straight onto the ward! I was there almost every day for three weeks and I saw it repeated dozens and dozens of times. When I raised the matter with the nursing staff they just shrugged and said that Muslims were refusing to use the gel because it contained alcohol.”

UK Muslim Hospital Workers Refuse to Wash Hands
alias is offline  
Remove Ads
Old December 30th, 2006, 06:33 AM   #2
Banned
 
Jefferson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,306
Fire them.



This is such an absolutely cut & dried situation. It has everything to do with the basic health & safety of the patients.



I don't care what color they are, what religion they are: If hospital workers won't wash their hands, FIRE THEM.









This is also the point at which Hevusa ought to step in and continue his endless bragging about how much better European health-care is than America's.
Jefferson is offline  
Old December 30th, 2006, 07:00 AM   #3
Senior Member
 
chrisg967's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 760
Workers or Visitors?

Interesting that the article posted says it's healthcare workers who are refusing to use the antiseptic gel, whereas articles elsewhere on the net say it's the patient's relatives who are refusing to use the gel.



The Sun Online - News: Muslims 'refuse anti-MRSA gel'



Zee News - British Muslims refuse washing hands with disinfectants in hospitals



What is not mentioned in any of the articles is that good old-fashioned soap and water still disinfect hands just as well as the antiseptic gels, and are not fire hazards when turning on lights, etc. The alcohol in them must evaporate completely to ensure that it does not ignite from a spark (this has happened to at least one unlucky medical technologist).
chrisg967 is offline  
Old December 30th, 2006, 07:06 AM   #4
Banned
 
Jefferson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisg967
Interesting that the article posted says it's healthcare workers who are refusing to use the antiseptic gel, whereas articles elsewhere on the net say it's the patient's relatives who are refusing to use the gel.



The Sun Online - News: Muslims 'refuse anti-MRSA gel'



Zee News - British Muslims refuse washing hands with disinfectants in hospitals



What is not mentioned in any of the articles is that good old-fashioned soap and water still disinfect hands just as well as the antiseptic gels, and are not fire hazards when turning on lights, etc. The alcohol in them must evaporate completely to ensure that it does not ignite from a spark (this has happened to at least one unlucky medical technologist).


Even so, working in the health field pre-empts silly religious regulations.



It's a choice. If you won't wash your hands, don't work in the medical field!
Jefferson is offline  
Old December 30th, 2006, 07:21 AM   #5
Senior Member
 
chrisg967's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 760
If it's workers refusing to use the gel, they must use soap and water OR antiseptic gel. If they do not, they should face the consequences.



If it's visitors, the hospitals have a PR issue and must educate visitors why they must wash hands with soap and water OR antiseptic gel before entering the patient's room. They may get better compliance if the signs are in Arabic....
chrisg967 is offline  
Old December 30th, 2006, 07:27 AM   #6
Banned
 
Jefferson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisg967
If it's workers refusing to use the gel, they must use soap and water OR antiseptic gel. If they do not, they should face the consequences.



If it's visitors, the hospitals have a PR issue and must educate visitors why they must wash hands with soap and water OR antiseptic gel before entering the patient's room. They may get better compliance if the signs are in Arabic....


They're workers, not visitors.



Because of my job, I am in and out of hospitals constantly. One of the MAIN REASONS germs spread - perhaps the #1 reason - is unwashed hands.



I don't give a crap if the Muslims have an aversion to alcohol. They're not drinking it, for crying out loud. I don't care if it's the Women's Christian Temperance Union.



It's black and white: YOU WORK IN A HOSPITAL. WASH YOUR HANDS OR YOU'RE FIRED!
Jefferson is offline  
Old December 30th, 2006, 08:23 AM   #7
Banned
 
alias's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,176
That was a good point about soap and water. It sounds to me like they are not even doing that though or I would think it would have been reported. I guess we'll have to look for more on the story. I just assumed they were not washing their hands. If they are not washing their hands, they should be fired.
alias is offline  
Old December 30th, 2006, 09:27 AM   #8
Senior Member
 
chrisg967's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 760
Thanks, Alias. Where I work, we are given the choice between the antiseptic gel or soap/water. I personally prefer soap/water.



I agree, Jefferson. If you work in a hospital, you have to follow the policies of the hospital or face the consequences. If you refuse to follow them you don't belong there. (I personally like to SEE my caretakers washing their hands in front of me before they do anything.)



My point was that other reports on the same incident were saying it was visitors who were just walking into the rooms, disregarding the signs. And the other reports used the same quote from Theresa Poupa. There were two reports that said it was visitors, and one that said it was workers.



If it's really visitors, we (people in general) need to do a better job in educating others about how germs spread. Like catching the aerosol from a sneeze or cough with a tissue, or lacking that, your sleeve (not your hand). Like keeping your hands away from your face (especially your eyes, which are a direct conduit for germs into your body). And washing after using the toilet.
chrisg967 is offline  
Old December 30th, 2006, 11:23 AM   #9
Banned
 
Jefferson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisg967
Thanks, Alias. Where I work, we are given the choice between the antiseptic gel or soap/water. I personally prefer soap/water.



I agree, Jefferson. If you work in a hospital, you have to follow the policies of the hospital or face the consequences. If you refuse to follow them you don't belong there. (I personally like to SEE my caretakers washing their hands in front of me before they do anything.)



My point was that other reports on the same incident were saying it was visitors who were just walking into the rooms, disregarding the signs. And the other reports used the same quote from Theresa Poupa. There were two reports that said it was visitors, and one that said it was workers.



If it's really visitors, we (people in general) need to do a better job in educating others about how germs spread. Like catching the aerosol from a sneeze or cough with a tissue, or lacking that, your sleeve (not your hand). Like keeping your hands away from your face (especially your eyes, which are a direct conduit for germs into your body). And washing after using the toilet.


You're right.



Visitors versus workers makes a huge difference - but not in the realm of spreading germs.



Now... beyond the stupid Muslim thing: I've not missed a day of work, because of being sick, in years. And I'm around people constantly. One of the reasons I've remained healthy is that I am very fastidious about washing my hands. We CANNOT over-emphasize the importance of that.



So go wash your hands!
Jefferson is offline  
Old December 30th, 2006, 12:39 PM   #10
Banned
 
alias's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jefferson
You're right.



Visitors versus workers makes a huge difference - but not in the realm of spreading germs.



Now... beyond the stupid Muslim thing: I've not missed a day of work, because of being sick, in years. And I'm around people constantly. One of the reasons I've remained healthy is that I am very fastidious about washing my hands. We CANNOT over-emphasize the importance of that.



So go wash your hands!


I went to the Christmas party 2 weeks ago and caught a cold. I still have it. I think working at home and not being around sick people makes me catch colds easier because I don't have the immunities. I don't know, but whenever I go out in the winter to a party or function, I catch something.
alias is offline  
Old December 30th, 2006, 02:05 PM   #11
Senior Member
 
chrisg967's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 760
Quote:
Originally Posted by alias
I went to the Christmas party 2 weeks ago and caught a cold. I still have it. I think working at home and not being around sick people makes me catch colds easier because I don't have the immunities. I don't know, but whenever I go out in the winter to a party or function, I catch something.


You may have a point there, Alias. I hope you get over your cold soon!
chrisg967 is offline  
Old January 10th, 2007, 12:31 AM   #12
Senior Member
 
sgtdmski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Poplar, MT
Posts: 2,004
I work in the field and use the gel regularly. It is a great benefit, it does not dry out your hands like soap and water, it is faster, and truthfully it works better than using soap and water. Truth be told, most people do not know how to properly wash their own hands to prevent the spread of disease.



The answer to this problem is simple, if someone gets sick and should perhaps die because of an infection, charge the responsible part with the crime. Religion or not, the alcohol used in the gel is different than the one you drink. Their objections are ridiculous and their entry into a ward can be refused and should be.



dmk
sgtdmski is offline  
Old January 10th, 2007, 01:34 AM   #13
Senior Member
 
hkbajwa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Islamabad
Posts: 1,056
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jefferson
Fire them.



This is such an absolutely cut & dried situation. It has everything to do with the basic health & safety of the patients.



I don't care what color they are, what religion they are: If hospital workers won't wash their hands, FIRE THEM.


Absolutely.. if you are not willing to abide by the laws of the land then get lost. ALL hospitals in pakistan use disinfectants and medicines containing alcohol. It has never been an issue here, and it damn well shouldn't be one any where else int he world.



However mind you this; while this demand is plain stupid and has NOTHING to to with Islam ( since it is a demand that would refused in MUSLIM countries also) bringing issues to light like the right to pray and the right to wear a veil is not unjust. However any change brought must be WITHIN the legal framework of the nation.



If muslims can get a law passed by congress mandating prayer breaks for muslims for instance, then it is their right because it has been acquired democratically.



I'm sure you can agree with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jefferson

This is also the point at which Hevusa ought to step in and continue his endless bragging about how much better European health-care is than America's.


Well the UK has AWFUL medical service. The NHA is hopelessly underfunded, ineffective and just plain CRAP ( i lived in the UK for a while and got sick a couple of times.. I actually had to come back to Pakistan to get proper treatment).



SCANDINAVIA on the other hand have a BRILLIANT service. My mom got breast cancer and she was given complete treatment, followup checks, psychiatric assistance and even free transport to and from her chaemo sessions.



Likewise my dad had a quintuple bypass not long after. He too was given the best treatment in the world. And we are just average danish citizens ( completely broke at the time actually).



Please for the love of god do not put all muslims in the same bracket as those fools. If you do, then you prevent muslims from condemning those fools themselves. If you follow up on this story i bet you will see NO MUSLIMS supporting unhygeinic practices.



I happen to know that as several of my family members are doctors in the UK
hkbajwa is offline  
Old January 10th, 2007, 07:21 AM   #14
Banned
 
Jefferson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkbajwa
Absolutely.. if you are not willing to abide by the laws of the land then get lost. ALL hospitals in pakistan use disinfectants and medicines containing alcohol. It has never been an issue here, and it damn well shouldn't be one any where else int he world.



However mind you this; while this demand is plain stupid and has NOTHING to to with Islam ( since it is a demand that would refused in MUSLIM countries also) bringing issues to light like the right to pray and the right to wear a veil is not unjust. However any change brought must be WITHIN the legal framework of the nation.



If muslims can get a law passed by congress mandating prayer breaks for muslims for instance, then it is their right because it has been acquired democratically.



I'm sure you can agree with that.





Well the UK has AWFUL medical service. The NHA is hopelessly underfunded, ineffective and just plain CRAP ( i lived in the UK for a while and got sick a couple of times.. I actually had to come back to Pakistan to get proper treatment).



SCANDINAVIA on the other hand have a BRILLIANT service. My mom got breast cancer and she was given complete treatment, followup checks, psychiatric assistance and even free transport to and from her chaemo sessions.



Likewise my dad had a quintuple bypass not long after. He too was given the best treatment in the world. And we are just average danish citizens ( completely broke at the time actually).



Please for the love of god do not put all muslims in the same bracket as those fools. If you do, then you prevent muslims from condemning those fools themselves. If you follow up on this story i bet you will see NO MUSLIMS supporting unhygeinic practices.



I happen to know that as several of my family members are doctors in the UK


I agree. This is NOT a Muslim issue. It's a MEDICAL issue.



As I said earlier, because of my job I'm in and out of hospitals regularly - and actually, many different hospitals.



If I refused to follow specified procedures for cleanliness and patient safety, I'd be ushered out of the hospital - and probably receive a boot to the butt as well. And I SHOULD be.



Patient health is #1 in hospitals - not religious expression.
Jefferson is offline  
Old January 12th, 2007, 08:28 PM   #15
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by alias
When I raised the matter with the nursing staff they just shrugged and said that Muslims were refusing to use the gel because it contained alcohol.

UK Muslim Hospital Workers Refuse to Wash Hands


I assume these people do not take cough syrup for colds, as it contains alcohol.
Nichole is offline  
Old January 13th, 2007, 04:32 AM   #16
Senior Member
 
chrisg967's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 760
I believe the issue for Muslims is avoiding intoxication, so anything that causes intoxication is not to be consumed. I believe there is confusion over the types of alcohols (ethanol vs. isopropyl alcohol).



Isopropyl alcohol should never be consumed by mouth, as it is highly toxic. OSHA has a long page on it discussing protection of workers who manufacture products containing Isopropyl alcohol. I believe the small amount in antiseptic gels is too small to cause symptoms of poisoning, otherwise the feds would not allow it to be used in hospitals.



Ethanol is also toxic, but less so than isopropyl alcohol. It is ethanol that is in alcoholic beverages.



Perhaps the question needs to be posed not to the medical community, but to the muslim community leader(s) on the use of gels or antiseptic products containing isopropyl alcohol to cleanse the body.
chrisg967 is offline  
Old January 15th, 2007, 10:54 AM   #17
Senior Member
 
foundit66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: California
Posts: 5,085
1) Is there a non-alcohol based gel that will work as well?

If so, there might be a compromise.



2) It's fairly cut and dried.

Having a religion does not exempt one from the rules.

If the rules require the gel, and there is a good reason for the rule, then the rule should be adhered to.



3) I don't get the Muslim perspective on this at all. It's not going in their mouths, but on their hands.

But then again there are Christian religious perspectives which forbid things like blood transfusions because of similar strict interpretations.
foundit66 is offline  
Reply

  Defending The Truth Political Forum > Political Issues > Healthcare

Tags
hands, hospital, muslim, refuse, wash, workers


Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wash your hands Dude111 Science and Technology 1 October 6th, 2009 06:39 AM
Wash your hands!!!!! fxashun Healthcare 10 August 4th, 2009 04:09 AM
Democrats refuse to let us drill IHateLiberals Political Talk 12 April 19th, 2005 06:57 AM


Facebook Twitter RSS Feed



Copyright © 2005-2013 Defending The Truth. All rights reserved.