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Old September 2nd, 2016, 09:39 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by BubbaJones View Post
Do you honestly think you aren't paying for it NOW ?? Every year the cost of insurance goes up. Every year the cost of medical care goes up, usually at 5 to as much as 10 times the rate of inflation. We ARE already paying for the poor and their healthcare.

Another question, HOW MUCH do American corporations pay for health care and insurance ??? For all the blah blah blah about tax rates, NO ONE discusses the costs associated with health care for employees, (well, at least not until Obamacare came along) My company pays 75% of my premiums.

How are our companies supposed to compete when nearly every other industrialized nation on the planet has universal health care ?? We spend 30% more per person than the next nearest country. The real number is probably closer to 50% or 60% more once you factor in the number of uninsured in the nation.


From what I found it looks like companies spend 6% to 7% for health insurance. Smaller companies are probably a MUCH higher percentage. What if we allowed a one time repatriation of cash at 20%. Dropped the top bracket from 38% to 30% but implemented a minimum 15% rate. A minimum tax rather than trying to find and close all other loop holes and incentives. You make a profit you're gonna pay something. Then use the money to implement universal coverage ?

Just like in many of those other countries, companies can still offer employees private insurance. In England private insurance works with the public system and is very inexpensive.

Healthcare is part of an employment negotiation just like salary, PTO and expectations are.

Before Obamacare I negotiated my long term contracts to include insurance if I could because they already offered it. Now many small businesses avoid it like the plague so we pay out of pocket and charge more for services.
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 09:47 AM   #12
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The question is, who's paying for it and, for whom is the taxpayer on the hook for. Does anyone have a moral obligation to anyone else to support their every need?

We all have a moral and ethical obligation to support others. We also have an intellectual obligation because those we DON'T support (those who have no family and no support system) will pull our society down with them. We support other Americans because it's the RIGHT thing to do. It's certainly the Christian thing to do. Do you not get the connection between you and your neighbor? Between you and your city/state/country?
Who do you think pays for emergency room visits by our indigent population? WE DO. You and I and anyone who works and pays taxes. Who do you think pays the hidden tax in insurance? Who pays for the 'padding' in the hospital bills? We do. Who already bears the cost of the uninsured. We do. When governments or employers do not provide health insurance, hospitals must effectively provide it instead.
So YOU and I are GOING TO PAY and HAVE been paying all along. You and I have been paying since we started working....and I'm glad to do it. Why do you resent it so much?
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Last edited by Clara007; September 2nd, 2016 at 01:18 PM.
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 12:45 PM   #13
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Society (modern) has always paid for it! Progressivism requires it. The bigger the "entitlement base" the more power a Centralized government has. No one has a moral or economic responsibility to subsidize anyone other than their immediate family. That is what charity is for. Progressives want to flood this nation with indigent people. Why? The answer is self evident.
That's your morality, and it is a morality that has changed little since prehistoric times.

Love your neighbor as you love yourself does not apply to greedy people.
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 12:51 PM   #14
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Healthcare is part of an employment negotiation just like salary, PTO and expectations are.

Before Obamacare I negotiated my long term contracts to include insurance if I could because they already offered it. Now many small businesses avoid it like the plague so we pay out of pocket and charge more for services.
That was sorta my point. What if we took the whole thing out of the equation ??
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 12:53 PM   #15
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It is way more expensive now that it is a state requirement and the state is more "involved" than it was before. There are major issues w/ it now.


Compare it to a car warranty. If I don't have regular preventative maintenance done to my car, the check engine light comes on and it is overheating and I drive it 50 miles to the service station the warranty company is going to tell me to kick rocks. They are also not going to cover a fleet of trucks that I got at an extraordinary discount from turkey all w/ upwards of 100k miles on them. If I take a daily driver to the track, decide to race it and wreck it, that's on me. Yet that is what we are expecting this forced national healthcare to do. It is ridiculous to say the least.
I wish I could say that made any sense.

It didn't.

Healthcare costs are driven by the lack of regular maintenance, the ridiculous legal climate that results in WAY more testing than is necessary, and the "gimme a quick cure" attitude that has resulted in doctors for the greater part being little more than drug pushers.

One needn't look too far to find examples of "statist-run" healthcare systems that work better than what we have.
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 01:00 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
I wish I could say that made any sense.

It didn't.

Healthcare costs are driven by the lack of regular maintenance, the ridiculous legal climate that results in WAY more testing than is necessary, and the "gimme a quick cure" attitude that has resulted in doctors for the greater part being little more than drug pushers.

One needn't look too far to find examples of "statist-run" healthcare systems that work better than what we have.
You do understand the reason for extensive testing is the fear of legal action.

She had a headache you did not do a CT with CSF testing for meningitis???
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 01:00 PM   #17
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We all have a moral and ethical obligation to support others. We also have an intellectual obligation because those we DON'T support (those who hae no family and no support system) will pull our society down with them. We support other Americans because it's the RIGHT thing to do. It's certainly the Christian thing to do. Do you not get the connection between you and your neighbor? Between you and your city/state/country?
Who do you think pays for emergency room visits by our indigent population? WE DO. You and I and anyone who works and pays taxes. Who do you think pays the hidden tax in insurance? Who pays for the 'padding' in the hospital bills? We do. Who already bears the cost of the uninsured. We do. When governments or employers do not provide health insurance, hospitals must effectively provide it instead.
So YOU and I are GOING TO PAY and HAVE been paying all along. You and I have been paying since we started working....and I'm glad to do it. Why do you resent it so much?
I agree with everything you said except, "I'm glad to do it."

I'm not glad to pay into a sick system. The very first thing to do healthcare-wise should have been to have fixed the system. THEN we should have discussed how to fund it.

Right now a bloated, corrupted, self-serving system is being funded. I am NOT glad to help fund it.
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 01:01 PM   #18
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You do understand the reason for extensive testing is the fear of legal action.

She had a headache you did not do a CT with CSF testing for meningitis???
Yes I do.

One needn't look too far to find examples of "statist-run" healthcare systems that work better than what we have.
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 01:01 PM   #19
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I wish I could say that made any sense.

It didn't.

Healthcare costs are driven by the lack of regular maintenance, the ridiculous legal climate that results in WAY more testing than is necessary, and the "gimme a quick cure" attitude that has resulted in doctors for the greater part being little more than drug pushers.

One needn't look too far to find examples of "statist-run" healthcare systems that work better than what we have.
The fact that I have to chip in to cover the people that have not been keeping up on their matinance schedule, running on high octane fuels recklessly and imports that no one knows anything about their matinance records.

How does that not make sense?

Those are some of the reasons that this Obamacare is such a mess.
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 01:14 PM   #20
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The fact that I have to chip in to cover the people that have not been keeping up on their matinance schedule, running on high octane fuels recklessly and imports that no one knows anything about their matinance records.

How does that not make sense?

Those are some of the reasons that this Obamacare is such a mess.
Regular maintenance is expensive, prohibitively so for more than you might imagine.

You just made one argument in favor of national healthcare. And let's not play any "charity" games here. The healthcare system as it now exists is not going to practice charity nor is it going to reform itself voluntarily.

Right now capitalists follow a survival of the fittest credo, jungle consciousness nothing more or less, though in the case of healthcare it's survival of the richest.

Fear and greed are the main capitalist motivators.
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