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Old January 16th, 2017, 07:54 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Clara007 View Post
Oh come on, Sab. All kinds of people have paid for YOU. And besides, you don't have to pay someone else's medical expenses--or for someone else's education, food, highways, bridges, libraries. You don't have to pay for the military. You don't have to pay taxes. It's optional.
So stop paying taxes and accept the consequences. Your new president is your role model...right??
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Ok, fiat. Do you really want to completely derail this thread over that "stop signs and candy bars" argument?

We are talking about one specific thing here. Healthcare.
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Health Care isn't only an individual concern, it's a public concern.
There are such things as epidemics that must be dealt with as a public concern, if you are going to be a member of society.

And you aren't forced to pay for health care, you aren't forced to pay taxes, it's a choice.
You aren't forced to participate in the economic system, you can join a monastery, lead a contemplative life, take a vow of poverty and you are tax free.
But if you want to participate in commerce, if you want to be a part of the public, there are rules.
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Why are stop signs and roads and safe food different than healthcare?

Candy bars is a stupidity you chose to introduce to obfuscate the matter.
Here we go again....
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Old January 16th, 2017, 07:59 PM   #62
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Health Care isn't only an individual concern, it's a public concern.
There are such things as epidemics that must be dealt with as a public concern, if you are going to be a member of society.

And you aren't forced to pay for health care, you aren't forced to pay taxes, it's a choice.
You aren't forced to participate in the economic system, you can join a monastery, lead a contemplative life, take a vow of poverty and you are tax free.
But if you want to participate in commerce, if you want to be a part of the public, there are rules.
Yeah, there are a great number of us that do not agree w/ that. We do not live in a socialist nation and the majority of the states feel that way.



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Old January 16th, 2017, 08:02 PM   #63
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No it goes back to an argument on this very subject sometime ago where fiat used candy bars as the subject since everything that made the factory run was in fact a product of socialism. So candy bars are a product created by the collective.

What gives the state the right to confiscate the healthcare system?

Shit...they already confiscated yours. Next.
That isn't confiscation, that is supplying a benefit.
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Old January 16th, 2017, 08:11 PM   #64
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That isn't confiscation, that is supplying a benefit.
Many hospitals are private property. The people who work there many have degrees that they have paid for w/ their own money or merit. The state is taking control of the system by force. Please explain how that is not confiscation?

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Definition of confiscate
1
: appropriated by the government : forfeited
2
: deprived of property by confiscation

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/confiscate
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Old January 16th, 2017, 08:56 PM   #65
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Many hospitals are private property. The people who work there many have degrees that they have paid for w/ their own money or merit. The state is taking control of the system by force. Please explain how that is not confiscation?




https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/confiscate
There are many ways of delivering healthcare. In the Canadian system, hospitals weren't confiscated, it's just that they all became contractors contracted to the government and derived their income from the government. The same for doctors. The vast majority of doctors are individually or by association in a clinic, incorporated. It's just that the vast majority of their billing is to the government. No confiscation involved.

Choice was removed.
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Old January 16th, 2017, 09:20 PM   #66
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There are many ways of delivering healthcare. In the Canadian system, hospitals weren't confiscated, it's just that they all became contractors contracted to the government and derived their income from the government. The same for doctors. The vast majority of doctors are individually or by association in a clinic, incorporated. It's just that the vast majority of their billing is to the government. No confiscation involved.

Choice was removed.
That's all well and nice.

That really does not answer my question though.

Here in the US it is private business ran by private citizens. The state is attempting to take that away from the people by force. The majority of the states do not want that. I do not live in Canada or China or Russia or England. I don't give a shit how things are done there. I care about how things are done here.
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Last edited by Sabcat; January 16th, 2017 at 09:42 PM.
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Old January 16th, 2017, 09:27 PM   #67
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That's all well and nice.

That really does not answer my question thoug.

Here in the US it is private business ran by private citizens. The state is attempting to take that away from the people by force. The majority of the states do not want that. I do not live in Canada or China or Russia or England. I don't give a shit how things are done there. I care about how things are done here.
Yes, and your attitude is you got yours and fuck everyone else. I understand.
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Old January 16th, 2017, 09:57 PM   #68
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Yes, and your attitude is you got yours and fuck everyone else. I understand.

They seriously fucked things up. I didn't know anyone who was not getting medical care before this debacle. We would go down and bring homeless in to get treated, I knew AIDS/HIV and Hep C patients who were homeless or in subsidized/shelters who were being treated. We could get people into drug treatment covered by the state w/in 30 days at most. All pre ACA. Now those people w/ are getting the same or better care but I don't know if that is because of the ACA or because the treatments have advanced dramaticly. Probably both but drug treatment is significantly more difficult and most of our associates are keeping their employees under 50 to avoid the monster insurance bills and everyone who is stuck paying their own way is getting screwed. Our deductible has increased by I don't even know how much by now but our cost goes up by the thousands each year.

So yeah. I want it gone. Big time. I don't mind so much when a small part of my income goes to Minnesota care as it helps my community I don't want to pay into Mississippi or Chicago or Florida or Japan.
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Old January 17th, 2017, 09:09 AM   #69
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They seriously fucked things up. I didn't know anyone who was not getting medical care before this debacle. We would go down and bring homeless in to get treated, I knew AIDS/HIV and Hep C patients who were homeless or in subsidized/shelters who were being treated. We could get people into drug treatment covered by the state w/in 30 days at most. All pre ACA. Now those people w/ are getting the same or better care but I don't know if that is because of the ACA or because the treatments have advanced dramaticly. Probably both but drug treatment is significantly more difficult and most of our associates are keeping their employees under 50 to avoid the monster insurance bills and everyone who is stuck paying their own way is getting screwed. Our deductible has increased by I don't even know how much by now but our cost goes up by the thousands each year.

So yeah. I want it gone. Big time. I don't mind so much when a small part of my income goes to Minnesota care as it helps my community I don't want to pay into Mississippi or Chicago or Florida or Japan.
First, I have never been a fan of the ACA. I called it the worst of both systems when it was instituted and haven't changed my mind since. But you seem to be arguing against any and all government involved healthcare.

The poor that currently get treated "for free" at clinics are in fact being paid for by you.

And look at the pre-ACA personal bankruptcy stats. I have posted those countless times here. For all I know, they might still be the same.

There are a variety of very good healthcare systems available to pick and chose from, in every other developed country.

But I can't see how no healthcare system at all encompassing all citizens can be accepted by anyone with a conscience.
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Old January 19th, 2017, 04:52 PM   #70
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They seriously fucked things up. I didn't know anyone who was not getting medical care before this debacle. We would go down and bring homeless in to get treated, I knew AIDS/HIV and Hep C patients who were homeless or in subsidized/shelters who were being treated. We could get people into drug treatment covered by the state w/in 30 days at most. All pre ACA. Now those people w/ are getting the same or better care but I don't know if that is because of the ACA or because the treatments have advanced dramaticly. Probably both but drug treatment is significantly more difficult and most of our associates are keeping their employees under 50 to avoid the monster insurance bills and everyone who is stuck paying their own way is getting screwed. Our deductible has increased by I don't even know how much by now but our cost goes up by the thousands each year.

So yeah. I want it gone. Big time. I don't mind so much when a small part of my income goes to Minnesota care as it helps my community I don't want to pay into Mississippi or Chicago or Florida or Japan.
There were plenty of people going untreated for chronic conditions, that's one of the reasons costs jumped, people came in with a multitude of issues.
Look, we have three systems here in America, we have market, the most expensive system in the world, we have single payer, which costs 40% less than the market system, and we have government run healthcare that saves about half.
Because in our market system, we pay for procedures, so we get lots and lots of procedures, because you get what you pay for, our single payer reins in some costs, and saves the underwriting, the marketing, and executive bonuses and that reduces the cost per patient 40%.
Government run health care clinics are owned by the government, the staff are salaried, they use electronic records, they coordinate treatments and tests and cost half as much as the market sector .

That's how it works here, that's how it works all over the world.
That might not agree with your political dogma, but it's reality.
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