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Old April 1st, 2017, 10:37 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by right to left View Post
I<snip>
So, all this said, I'm tempted to mention every time I'm drawn to a debate about healthcare funding that...no matter how you pay for it, costs are going to continue to rise! It's a matter of costs rising faster under private, profit-taking systems..especially our system of late-stage capitalism that has given up trying to prevent and instead accommodates private monopolies. But, in Canada, our public healthcare systems are also feeling the strains of neverending demand for more dollars because of aging boomers and I would say most important of all: because our capitalist system today is increasingly desperate and making everyday life more of a challenge for more people.
To beautifully illustrate your point:



http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2017...next-100-years
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Old April 1st, 2017, 03:14 PM   #112
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That is not how it works. These funds are made up primarily of individual investors, and the funds but the shares of a company. The shares are voted via proxy votes by the fund manager or individuals can exercise to vote their shares.
Individuals can vote the shares they own in their personal brokerage account.
For the most part, individuals can't vote the shares they own in a 401k or an IRA.
Individuals don't vote shares in mutual funds.
Most of the shares that are voted are not voted by the owners of the stock, but by fund managers.

The people controlling the vast majority of the stock market are not the owners.
It's a system with all the pitfalls you assign to socialism.
Only worse, because self interested dealing is allowed.
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Old April 1st, 2017, 03:26 PM   #113
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Is there a punchline someplace here?

What are all the socialists doing talking about the stock market?
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Old April 1st, 2017, 03:39 PM   #114
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There is no right or wrong regarding a joke except in a binary world filled with hate.
Here's hoping we can get out of that world.
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Old April 1st, 2017, 04:17 PM   #115
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I think you did the right thing, and it's best when people have the wisdom to take stock of their lives and choose their own course for treatment, and of course, make sure whichever family member who's acting as executor for the living will is up to speed and knows what to do if and when medical practitioners directly violate or ignore the dictates of that will! This happened a little over a year ago to an older brother who's wife had an unexpected and untimely massive stroke and went to the hospital never regaining consciousness.

Even though a neurologist who examined her determined she had suffered massive brain damage from the stroke and...especially given her age and overall health..would be very, very unlikely to regain conscious awareness..let alone resume anything close to a good quality of life, the medical staff still resist and make decisions based more out of fear of legal jeopardy than doing what they think is best for the patient. This doesn't happen in all cases certainly, but as long as many doctors have the prevailing opinion that doing something is less risky than doing nothing, medical resources will continue to be wasted where they are not needed/nor wanted!

Personally, I don't get overly invested in the debates over medicine and health insurance funding because...well, first of all, I have almost no direct experience with the medical establishment except for the medical checkup I have to get every three years because of employer demands. My wife is a much more frequent customer of our doctor and has lots of prescriptions to show for it. My main beef with standard western medicine goes way back long before issues of costs and funding started reaching a crisis for an aging population: mostly I see health and wellness as a total experience that is best when we engage in fitness and healthy lifestyles in our youth (in my case it was a set of fitness goals that only tangentially related to overall health).

As I've aged, I'm slowing down (especially running speed), I likely have the first signs of arthritis in my fingers, but overall I'm aging much slower than others my age...if I can go by others I met at a high school reunion a few years ago! But, aside from a few bland public service announcements, how much of the messaging coming out of modern consumer-capitalist societies promotes good health/and how much does the exact opposite, and promotes impulsivity, addiction and materialism?

The entire medical establishment...whether public or private, is essentially the same thing as the ambulance that shows up with paramedics in an emergency...it's something there to try to pick up the pieces after the damage has been done! At any age, whatever overall health prospects, it's always more beneficial for people to stop smoking, put the booze away, change diets to healthy eating, get regular aerobic as well as muscle-building exercise, and get enough sleep...that one is only getting attention since Ariana Huffington noticed it for some reason, but that should be common sense at any age. But too many people are on limited incomes and can only afford mostly cheap carbs to feed themselves and their kids, or work odd hours that make fast food burgers a regular staple of their diets, and...well, forget about sleep! Even most of the people I work with...if they start asking me why..even after changing diet and starting to exercise, they're still gaining weight...lack of sleep is usually the main culprit.

So, all this said, I'm tempted to mention every time I'm drawn to a debate about healthcare funding that...no matter how you pay for it, costs are going to continue to rise! It's a matter of costs rising faster under private, profit-taking systems..especially our system of late-stage capitalism that has given up trying to prevent and instead accommodates private monopolies. But, in Canada, our public healthcare systems are also feeling the strains of neverending demand for more dollars because of aging boomers and I would say most important of all: because our capitalist system today is increasingly desperate and making everyday life more of a challenge for more people.
Indeed.

I'm going to get on my soapbox for a few moments.

The basic, the cut to the bone reason why "modern" medicine is expensive and becoming more expensive: its primary MO - kill, cut, and burn - is very similar to "modern" agriculture.

Modern agriculture with its emphasis on chemicals destroys the soils ability to be fertile. It creates a sterile environment, devoid of predators, devoid of earthworms, a microflora and fauna wasteland.

Have you ever had an organic garden? After a few years, a micro-environment develops. Lots of bugs are visible in the oblique rays of the evening sun. Turn over a spadeful of dirt, tons of earthworms. The plants are healthy, happy, and taste better and look better than agribusiness fare.

The emphasis in organic farming is to raise healthy plants who actually can fend for themselves very well. Ah, but then there's the scrawny plant. Maybe it has a bad set of genes, or something, and look at it: covered in bugs, or, it has a fungus infection, or both. That's a powerful lesson for anyone paying attention, anyone living a conscious life.

The parallels between farming and human health are many. Imagine docs prescribing medications to make the body more healthy rather than medications to kill germs, germs, that like bugs, grow evermore resistant to the poisons administered, poisons that weaken the body and create dependencies, just like plants being doused with insecticides, fungicides, and NPK fertilizers.

In fairness, some farmers and some branches of medicine are glacially moving away from the agribusiness and factory medicine paradigms, but it's really slow. My biggest complaint with Obamacare was that it didn't apply to the therapeutic modalities I seek out first when I have a health issue, such as acupuncture.

Modern medicine is a business, and it must turn a profit, and it overcharges because many if not most people attracted to the medical professions are in it first for the money. If medicine was focused on healing, it would be trying to explain the placebo effect, explain it and harness it.

But we don't see that, do we?

(steps down from soapbox )
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Old April 1st, 2017, 04:49 PM   #116
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And that's why the cost of health care will continue to rise, and that's why whatever savings can be realized by systemic changes will be vitally important in the future.
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Old April 1st, 2017, 04:52 PM   #117
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Is there a punchline someplace here?

What are all the socialists doing talking about the stock market?
Who is a socialist?
I'm in favor of regulated markets.
And you're against everything.
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Old April 1st, 2017, 04:58 PM   #118
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You forgot to mention the oversized influence of the drug industry on US politics! The biggest travesty (aside from dropping the public option) of Obamacare was caving in to Big Drug and leaving American customers at the mercy of these extortionists!

In our medicare system, there are review panels that can and will override a physician's desire to bill for a treatment or procedure he wants to perform, usually on the grounds of patient's age, relative health and survivability. In my mother's case, she'll be 99 years old next friday, and she has given up reading because her eyesight has been steadily getting worse over the last five years because of macular degeneration. But her doctor says there is little they can do because of her advanced age.
In some cases, being too young is a disqualifer; as in the case of a co-worker who needed hip replacement surgery at a younger-than typical age. He had to wait at least an extra five years, even though he could hardly walk, because the surgery is a once in a lifetime operation according to our healthcare provider- OHIP. They'll pay for it once...but only once!

On average, most of our health costs come at us in our last 10 years of life, and it would be nice if people had more options to stop operations and procedures that will do next to nothing to actually improve quality of life in the final years.
Actually, nearly half of healthcare costs are incurred in the first two weeks of life and the last two weeks of life.

You could save a lot of money there....
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Old April 1st, 2017, 07:50 PM   #119
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Individuals can vote the shares they own in their personal brokerage account.
For the most part, individuals can't vote the shares they own in a 401k or an IRA.
Individuals don't vote shares in mutual funds.
Most of the shares that are voted are not voted by the owners of the stock, but by fund managers.

The people controlling the vast majority of the stock market are not the owners.
It's a system with all the pitfalls you assign to socialism.
Only worse, because self interested dealing is allowed.
Individuals in any fund get a vote. Some get direct votes to the actual company of the stock or if not, they get a vote regarding the fund's management, especially the social responsibility of how the fund will vote regarding the primary company. The shareholders always have a say if they choose to exercise it.
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Old April 2nd, 2017, 09:00 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
Indeed.

I'm going to get on my soapbox for a few moments.

The basic, the cut to the bone reason why "modern" medicine is expensive and becoming more expensive: its primary MO - kill, cut, and burn - is very similar to "modern" agriculture.

Modern agriculture with its emphasis on chemicals destroys the soils ability to be fertile. It creates a sterile environment, devoid of predators, devoid of earthworms, a microflora and fauna wasteland.

Have you ever had an organic garden? After a few years, a micro-environment develops. Lots of bugs are visible in the oblique rays of the evening sun. Turn over a spadeful of dirt, tons of earthworms. The plants are healthy, happy, and taste better and look better than agribusiness fare.

The emphasis in organic farming is to raise healthy plants who actually can fend for themselves very well. Ah, but then there's the scrawny plant. Maybe it has a bad set of genes, or something, and look at it: covered in bugs, or, it has a fungus infection, or both. That's a powerful lesson for anyone paying attention, anyone living a conscious life.

The parallels between farming and human health are many. Imagine docs prescribing medications to make the body more healthy rather than medications to kill germs, germs, that like bugs, grow evermore resistant to the poisons administered, poisons that weaken the body and create dependencies, just like plants being doused with insecticides, fungicides, and NPK fertilizers.

In fairness, some farmers and some branches of medicine are glacially moving away from the agribusiness and factory medicine paradigms, but it's really slow. My biggest complaint with Obamacare was that it didn't apply to the therapeutic modalities I seek out first when I have a health issue, such as acupuncture.

Modern medicine is a business, and it must turn a profit, and it overcharges because many if not most people attracted to the medical professions are in it first for the money. If medicine was focused on healing, it would be trying to explain the placebo effect, explain it and harness it.

But we don't see that, do we?

(steps down from soapbox )
Yeah, Big Ag makes a good comparison with Big Med. I've always thought of doctors and standard medical practice as auto mechanics who work on human bodies instead of cars...especially since modern medicine made it possible to replace human organs when they can't be fixed. Everything is treated as a separate component of a system, and treated separately, instead of considering overall health as the primary goal.

I especially see this with how much of cancer prevention has transitioned to treatments and the futile search for a "cure" of most cancers! Most road-running races became increasingly about raising more and more money for the great black hole of cancer research, instead of prevention, because research and search for cures are highly profitable markets that don't challenge business practices which produce pesticides and other carcinogens in our common environment, which cause many types of cancers.

Still, if we have to pay for standard, Big Medicine, the best way to do it is as a shared cost for society, rather than every man for himself/profit-taking systems that the US is still stuck on.
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