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Old May 24th, 2008, 05:32 AM   #1
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The politics of sex

What's 'normal' sex? Shrinks seek definition - Sexploration - MSNBC.com



Here's a piece about some of the politics and "science" that goes into the creation of the DSM. Doesn't sound as "scientific" as I would hope. Sounds almost like a popularity contest.
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Old June 12th, 2008, 12:03 AM   #2
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what is so unscientific about this ?



The petition accuses Zucker of having engaged in “junk science” and promoting “hurtful theories” during his career, especially advocating the idea that children who are unambiguously male or female anatomically, but seem confused about their gender identity, can be treated by encouraging gender expression in line with their anatomy.



But the APA, he says, is doing its best to put science and evidence first, both in who it appoints to working groups and in the process it will use to create the DSM-V



It is not a final arbiter of who’s crazy and who’s not. Saltz, who says she thinks the DSM can be limiting in clinical practice, prefers to take a holistic approach and look at each patient’s collection of symptoms and concerns without being restricted by the DSM’s various criteria.

Regier agrees that’s how doctors should use it, arguing that the DSM “really needs to be seen as a set of scientific hypotheses.” It is, he believes, “a living document” changeable with new research.



the DSM criteria for diagnosis of unusual sexual interests as pathological rests on a series of unproven and more importantly, untested assumptions.” (note this is how things are NOW, and how they were in the 1970s)



So if enough people start to do it, or are more public about doing it, does that mean it is no longer a disorder? “I think it probably affects the degree to which people are willing to look at scientific evidence,” Regier says.



they talk about reviewing evidence, ensuring there is evidence for each diagnosis, not making assumptions based on cultural norms. sounds like good science to me. and they are aware of the political and social pressures that impact on them which are being clearly stated from the outset, which is good.



the major issue is the lack of any useful evidence much of the time. but is the solution then to judge everything a disorder until evidence proves it isnt, or judge it not a disorder until evidence proves it is ?



but you cannot disprove a negative. if we start saying it is pathological, we cannot actually ever deliver proof that it is normal. this position is not a scientific theory. from a scientific point of view, it is better science to start from the position that things are not pathological until we can find evidence that they are.
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Old June 12th, 2008, 07:47 AM   #3
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Taking that small segment out and compring it to this one...

So if enough people start to do it, or are more public about doing it, does that mean it is no longer a disorder? “I think it probably affects the degree to which people are willing to look at scientific evidence,” Regier says. This fuzziness is why, starting in the 1980s, the field moved toward adding the notion of “distress” to the DSM.



Is why you should read the whole article before you post.



Societal acceptance has nothing to do with science.
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Old June 12th, 2008, 01:02 PM   #4
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There is no such thing, objectively, as "normal" sex.
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Old June 12th, 2008, 02:00 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerwiccan
There is no such thing, objectively, as "normal" sex.




Who the fuck want's to have normal sex anyway?!?!



What is normal? For me it used to be jacking off in the back of movie theaters, that was cool until...you might have heard the story?
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Old June 12th, 2008, 02:36 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fxashun
What's 'normal' sex? Shrinks seek definition - Sexploration - MSNBC.com



Here's a piece about some of the politics and "science" that goes into the creation of the DSM. Doesn't sound as "scientific" as I would hope. Sounds almost like a popularity contest.




This is yet further proof of what we have been saying for ages.



The APA's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders is like a shrink's version of American Idol, and about as scientific.



It all boils down to who is on the committee and who campaigns hardest to get their particular deviancy "approved".



Little wonder the APA chose to reverse millenia of human wisdom and intuition regarding the homosexual defect, without offering a shred of evidence to back up their absurd position.



And little wonder that the validity of the homosexual dysfunction has remained unproven.
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Old June 12th, 2008, 02:56 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pee-wee
Who the fuck want's to have normal sex anyway?!?!



What is normal? For me it used to be jacking off in the back of movie theaters, that was cool until...you might have heard the story?
Yeah man, you got a bum rap on that.
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Old June 12th, 2008, 06:19 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fxashun
Taking that small segment out and compring it to this one...

So if enough people start to do it, or are more public about doing it, does that mean it is no longer a disorder? “I think it probably affects the degree to which people are willing to look at scientific evidence,” Regier says. This fuzziness is why, starting in the 1980s, the field moved toward adding the notion of “distress” to the DSM.



Is why you should read the whole article before you post.



Societal acceptance has nothing to do with science.


true. when the DSM cirteria were developed they were based on the current traditions and norms of the time. the point of developing DSM was to unify the psychiatric language and research to make it consistent across the world. including homosexuality as an illness, and the other paraphilias was exactly what you are complaining of, defining something as illness on the basis of social acceptance.



luckily, science has since intervened. even so, medicine is a conservative profession, and changes to the conventional wisdom happen slowly and only if evidence is present.



BTW, the other professional organisations, other psychiatric diagnostic systems, all agree with the APA. you seem to be focussed on the APA exclusively, obsessed with it as a vehicle for political activists. you forget that they stick to science wherever it is available, and expert opinion if the evidence is not available. and more political pressure has been put on them by your side of the debate than mine.



despite this, they have managed to stay true to science, reading evidence objectively and resisting the temptation to allow prejudice and social issues to taint their decisions. so have the WHO, the IDC, and every other professional medical organisation in the world. why does this fact seem to magically disappear whenever you post ?
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Old June 12th, 2008, 06:31 PM   #9
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garysher;



This is yet further proof of what we have been saying for ages.



The APA's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders is like a shrink's version of American Idol, and about as scientific.



actually, the article describes it as very scientific, taking pains to be aware of the social pressures it might face. it describes the procedure of evidence being considered by experts with relevant experience, debate among experts when there is insufficient evidence and a process of teating and challenging conclusions.



It all boils down to who is on the committee and who campaigns hardest to get their particular deviancy "approved".



actually, it boils down to the evidence. where there is no evidence it boils down to expert opinion. this is the same as any other medical field, by the way. and when there is debate, there are no changes made. instead there is a process started to collect evidence so the debate can be resolved.



Little wonder the APA chose to reverse millenia of human wisdom and intuition regarding the homosexual defect, without offering a shred of evidence to back up their absurd position.



there are 3 outright lies in this sentence. anyone able to see them ?



And little wonder that the validity of the homosexual dysfunction has remained unproven.



this is of course to do with the lack of evidence for it being a dysfunction. good thing the APA stick to evidence whenever they can, or we might see social considerations and non medical moral judgements passing into DSM criteria.



do you realise, garysher, that you are asking the APA to abandon evidence, abandon a scientific position, and replace it with a position based on cultural and moral judgements ? lucky they don't listen to arguments like yours.
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Old June 12th, 2008, 06:41 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hot dragon
garysher;



This is yet further proof of what we have been saying for ages.



The APA's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders is like a shrink's version of American Idol, and about as scientific.



actually, the article describes it as very scientific, taking pains to be aware of the social pressures it might face. it describes the procedure of evidence being considered by experts with relevant experience, debate among experts when there is insufficient evidence and a process of teating and challenging conclusions.



It all boils down to who is on the committee and who campaigns hardest to get their particular deviancy "approved".



actually, it boils down to the evidence. where there is no evidence it boils down to expert opinion. this is the same as any other medical field, by the way. and when there is debate, there are no changes made. instead there is a process started to collect evidence so the debate can be resolved.



Little wonder the APA chose to reverse millenia of human wisdom and intuition regarding the homosexual defect, without offering a shred of evidence to back up their absurd position.



there are 3 outright lies in this sentence. anyone able to see them ?



And little wonder that the validity of the homosexual dysfunction has remained unproven.



this is of course to do with the lack of evidence for it being a dysfunction. good thing the APA stick to evidence whenever they can, or we might see social considerations and non medical moral judgements passing into DSM criteria.



do you realise, garysher, that you are asking the APA to abandon evidence, abandon a scientific position, and replace it with a position based on cultural and moral judgements ? lucky they don't listen to arguments like yours.


What 'evidence' are you talking about?



We've been asking you that question for weeks and you still haven't come up with anything!!!



If decisions about the DSM are made objectively based on 'evidence' why would those transgender wackjobs be so worried about who sits on the work group:



"At least one petition, spearheaded by transgender activists, is being circulated to oppose the appointment of some members to the Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders work group and its chair, Kenneth Zucker, head of the Gender Identity Service at the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto, Canada. The petition accuses Zucker of having engaged in “junk science” and promoting “hurtful theories” during his career"



What's 'normal' sex? Shrinks seek definition - Sexploration - MSNBC.com



Face it, the politically correct shrink community is trying to persuade the rest of us that homosexuals aren't dysfunctional after all.



And that's like a meteorologist with a PhD trying to tell us rain isn't really wet

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