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Old January 14th, 2018, 07:52 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by discollector View Post
I noticed you used fairus as your citing source. So, while you challenge nonpartisan studies, you cite fairus.org.

That site was bankrolled by John Tanton. Tanton is a white supremacist that supports eugenics. You better believe my B.S. meter sounded off rather loudly.

You haven't had the time to read the studies so, we now both know what you are willing to believe.
Fairus was cited prominently in many articles and studies. Would you prefer I use the heritage foundation instead? Would you care to address the US dollars sent out of the nation? You implied your bias from my source immediately. Am I to believe you have studied it?
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Old January 14th, 2018, 08:39 AM   #42
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Fairus was cited prominently in many articles and studies. Would you prefer I use the heritage foundation instead? Would you care to address the US dollars sent out of the nation? You implied your bias from my source immediately. Am I to believe you have studied it?
In my earlier years I did research for a John Tanton enterprise. It's not unusual that, when debating people over certain talking points, I run into my own earlier research. I knew then, as now, much of it is to be used as political propaganda.

Money leaves the U.S. Okay, how much of that money do you think comes back to the United States?

If we were not allowing those people to work and they turned their country into worse of a shit-hole than it is today, how much money would we lose sending troops in to quell violent uprisings? How much money would it cost to send doctors and medicine into that country? Yes, we'd do it. Diseases are not hampered by a silly wall and the immigration authorities.

So, yes, you have been answered.

That will not make you understand that the more productive worker generates more than his / her paycheck. A company makes more in profit, they put more money in the bank, the bank loans out money by way of fractional reserve banking and more money is generated. You should get some education in the economics of your own country.

This is me, personally:

Bubba comes along and submits a bid to build a deck for me. He wants $1200. A group of Mexicans came along and said they would do it for $325 and I buy the material. So, I hired the Mexicans. We went to Home Depot. The cost of the material was $287. I saved almost half of what a white guy wanted. Why did he want that much?

It took the three Mexican guys just under three hours to do the job. That is over $100 an hour each! Of course, one of them owns the truck, etc. and probably pays the other guys $15 an hour. I saved close to $600. Now, let's you and I reason here a bit.

You think I cheated some white guy out of some money. But, I didn't owe him anything. Had the white guy got that job, he pays off his employees and they spend the money in stores buying junk made in China, Korea, Japan, etc. That helps out our economy a lot, don't it. But let us suppose that my job had been ten times bigger... that it's a remodel job.

Now, not only do I personally save by using the cheaper labor, but my home is worth more money. So, let us say I invested $6000 in improvements into my house. It increased in value by $18000. The banks, operating on fractional reserve banking can now loan out MORE money because my home is worth more without having to invest more just to pay Bubba's rate. With more money available in our U.S. economy, it creates more jobs.

Bubba knocks himself out of contention because he thinks the skill set it took him six months to learn is worth the same as what a surgeon makes. When MILLIONS of Americans make less than $15 an hour, they cannot afford such an outrage. Expecting them to pay it or face losing their homes is really unrealistic... and you're claiming to be about reality.

Where I live, there are a lot of people on fixed incomes. But, here is a scenario that actually happened a couple of months ago:

A pressure release valve went out on my water heater. I called a plumber. He came out and spent over 20 minutes coming up with an estimate... a $240 estimate!!!! I call one of my guys and we install the part (that I had all along) in under 20 minutes and he charges me $30.

The point is, there are jobs out there and you can make damn good money. A guy with a truck, lawnmower, and few tools can make $250 a day and work as much or as little as he likes. Instead, the only "Americans" (as I perceive them) are contractors (sic) who are trying to pay a thousand dollar a month monster truck payment on handyman jobs. And, the guys they hire had rather work for $10 an hour than to get a truck and offer to do jobs for $25 to $30 an hour.

You're creating problems where none in reality exist. And, at the end of the day, beyond the anti-immigrant view that has no comprehension of how the world works (especially their own economy), for me the real issue is about how much control we want to give government. When I see people imprisoned, put into bankruptcy, and sometimes KILLED by the government... WITHOUT DUE PROCESS, I begin to ask myself over and over how big a commitment we really want to make to bring about World Government.
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Old January 14th, 2018, 09:07 AM   #43
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[QUOTE=discollector;1133839]
Quote:
In my earlier years I did research for a John Tanton enterprise. It's not unusual that, when debating people over certain talking points, I run into my own earlier research. I knew then, as now, much of it is to be used as political propaganda.
Uhhuh, ok then.
Quote:
Money leaves the U.S. Okay, how much of that money do you think comes back to the United States?
Not very much.

Quote:
If we were not allowing those people to work and they turned their country into worse of a shit-hole than it is today, how much money would we lose sending troops in to quell violent uprisings? How much money would it cost to send doctors and medicine into that country? Yes, we'd do it. Diseases are not hampered by a silly wall and the immigration authorities.
You are dancing in circles. On one hand you jump up and down that illegal aliens help the US economy. Now you are saying they are helping their own nations by not working in their own nation. Are you saying that expats working in foreign countries boost the economy of the nation they left? I really did not have to ask that because that is in fact what you are saying. Now your building a straw man from disease and sickness. Furthermore how many US troops are in Venezuela right now? 0 is the answer. Another straw man you are building over violent uprisings in foreign nations and such. And, for the record, I oppose US interventionist policies in general.

Quote:
So, yes, you have been answered.
Yes, I have seen the hay field.

Quote:
That will not make you understand that the more productive worker generates more than his / her paycheck. A company makes more in profit, they put more money in the bank, the bank loans out money by way of fractional reserve banking and more money is generated. You should get some education in the economics of your own country.
Oh, fractional banking. Wow, you really want to jump all around subjects. But, in that paragraph alone you justified illegal aliens, and corporations that hire them.
Quote:
This is me, personally:
Quote:
Bubba comes along and submits a bid to build a deck for me. He wants $1200. A group of Mexicans came along and said they would do it for $325 and I buy the material. So, I hired the Mexicans. We went to Home Depot. The cost of the material was $287. I saved almost half of what a white guy wanted. Why did he want that much?

It took the three Mexican guys just under three hours to do the job. That is over $100 an hour each! Of course, one of them owns the truck, etc. and probably pays the other guys $15 an hour. I saved close to $600. Now, let's you and I reason here a bit.
As far as I am concerned, if you know that you are paying illegal aliens then you are part of the problem and should be dealt with in a legal matter.
Quote:
You think I cheated some white guy out of some money. But, I didn't owe him anything. Had the white guy got that job, he pays off his employees and they spend the money in stores buying junk made in China, Korea, Japan, etc. That helps out our economy a lot, don't it. But let us suppose that my job had been ten times bigger... that it's a remodel job.
The race card you played is without merit. You cheated a lawful American citizen.
Quote:
Now, not only do I personally save by using the cheaper labor, but my home is worth more money. So, let us say I invested $6000 in improvements into my house. It increased in value by $18000. The banks, operating on fractional reserve banking can now loan out MORE money because my home is worth more without having to invest more just to pay Bubba's rate. With more money available in our U.S. economy, it creates more jobs.
You justify your greed

Quote:
Bubba knocks himself out of contention because he thinks the skill set it took him six months to learn is worth the same as what a surgeon makes. When MILLIONS of Americans make less than $15 an hour, they cannot afford such an outrage. Expecting them to pay it or face losing their homes is really unrealistic... and you're claiming to be about reality.
You justify a peasant class
Quote:
Where I live, there are a lot of people on fixed incomes. But, here is a scenario that actually happened a couple of months ago:

A pressure release valve went out on my water heater. I called a plumber. He came out and spent over 20 minutes coming up with an estimate... a $240 estimate!!!! I call one of my guys and we install the part (that I had all along) in under 20 minutes and he charges me $30.
Yeah, you unscrew the old one and screw in the new one. Yeah, the plumber figures most people are smart enough they do that on their own.

Quote:
The point is, there are jobs out there and you can make damn good money. A guy with a truck, lawnmower, and few tools can make $250 a day and work as much or as little as he likes. Instead, the only "Americans" (as I perceive them) are contractors (sic) who are trying to pay a thousand dollar a month monster truck payment on handyman jobs. And, the guys they hire had rather work for $10 an hour than to get a truck and offer to do jobs for $25 to $30 an hour.
As you perceive them. Really that is all you are down to now. Your own personal perceptions from a bubble that you live in.
Quote:
You're creating problems where none in reality exist. And, at the end of the day, beyond the anti-immigrant view that has no comprehension of how the world works (especially their own economy), for me the real issue is about how much control we want to give government. When I see people imprisoned, put into bankruptcy, and sometimes KILLED by the government... WITHOUT DUE PROCESS, I begin to ask myself over and over how big a commitment we really want to make to bring about World Government.
Couple questions
Are you in support of open borders?
Would you agree to allow reciprocity in regards to immigration laws with Canada other nations?
By reciprocity, I mean whatever Mexican immigration laws are in regards to illegal entry by US citizens, we would apply the same matrix to them.
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Last edited by guy39; January 14th, 2018 at 09:10 AM.
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Old January 14th, 2018, 09:29 AM   #44
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Lets repeat this: If someone hires a person to work at their home and is directing them as to what to do they are then the employer and are required by law to with hold all taxes and and have the proper insurance for having an employee. If someone hires a contractor to do a job then they should be prepared to pay a price that covers that contractors required insurances, tools, taxes, costs of doing business, wages, etc.

If someone pays laborers cash or check made out to them and not a business, especially if they have no business license, then you are the employer and if you are not paying the proper insurance and withholding taxes and paying them as required by law, then you are cheating the rest of America. If you knowingly hire illegals, then you are the problem. I suggest learning basic law, both business and tax. Liberty has not being denied because of these laws. SMFH

As to fractional reserve banking, home improvements/equity has no bearing on it, as it requires actual money be deposited in the bank and the bank keeps a percentage in its holding while it lends the remainder out. It works on bank deposits. SMFH

People really should get some basic education in economics before they spout off about things they don't grasp or try to lie about to cover their ass.

Last edited by TreeDoc; January 14th, 2018 at 09:47 AM.
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Old January 14th, 2018, 09:33 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by TreeDoc View Post
Lets repeat this: If someone hires a person to work at their home and is directing them as to what to do they are then the employer and are required by law to with hold all taxes and and have the proper insurance for having an employee. If someone hires a contractor to do a job then they should be prepared to pay a price that covers that contractors required insurances, tools, taxes, costs of doing business, wages, etc.

If you pay laborers cash or check made out to them, especially if they have no business license, then you are the employer and if you are not paying the proper insurance and withholding taxes and paying them as required by law, then you are cheating the rest of America. If you knowingly hire illegals, then you are the problem. I suggest learning basic law, both business and tax. Liberty has not being denied because of these laws. SMFH
When dealing with contractors, its good to make sure you have an agreement that the contractor hires and employees in a lawful manner. Unfortunately contractors often times do not. Since you are contracting, you are very limited in how to address this. For instance, from an employee position, should you be expected to have your private information, including ss number divulged to people who you do not work for? It can become very hard to verify who a contractor is employing. That is why the best you can do is make sure its contracted in some manner that the contractor agrees to be legal in order to release you from any liability that you really have no direct control over.
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Old January 14th, 2018, 09:51 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by guy39 View Post
When dealing with contractors, its good to make sure you have an agreement that the contractor hires and employees in a lawful manner. Unfortunately contractors often times do not. Since you are contracting, you are very limited in how to address this. For instance, from an employee position, should you be expected to have your private information, including ss number divulged to people who you do not work for? It can become very hard to verify who a contractor is employing. That is why the best you can do is make sure its contracted in some manner that the contractor agrees to be legal in order to release you from any liability that you really have no direct control over.
Exactly. By the way I'm a Licensed Contractor In California, for well over 20 years now.
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Old January 14th, 2018, 04:31 PM   #47
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Uhhuh, ok then.

Not very much.

You are dancing in circles. On one hand you jump up and down that illegal aliens help the US economy. Now you are saying they are helping their own nations by not working in their own nation. Are you saying that expats working in foreign countries boost the economy of the nation they left? I really did not have to ask that because that is in fact what you are saying. Now your building a straw man from disease and sickness. Furthermore how many US troops are in Venezuela right now? 0 is the answer. Another straw man you are building over violent uprisings in foreign nations and such. And, for the record, I oppose US interventionist policies in general.


Yes, I have seen the hay field.

Oh, fractional banking. Wow, you really want to jump all around subjects. But, in that paragraph alone you justified illegal aliens, and corporations that hire them.

I don't have to justify a damn thing. I'm telling you the reason corporations hire undocumented foreigners. It's about profit... and you realize a lot of that profit.

As far as I am concerned, if you know that you are paying illegal aliens then you are part of the problem and should be dealt with in a legal matter.

Do you think I care? I'm here to serve my God and feed my family first. If you or the government gets in the way of that, I will walk right through you to protect my family.

The race card you played is without merit. You cheated a lawful American citizen.
You justify your greed

I'm not cheating a damn soul. This is a free market economy. I pay what I can afford and what is fair.

You justify a peasant class
Yeah, you unscrew the old one and screw in the new one. Yeah, the plumber figures most people are smart enough they do that on their own.

Oh, did I happen to mention that I had major surgery a few weeks earlier and was pretty much bedridden? And there are a LOT of poor and elderly people who do not have plumbing skills.

As you perceive them. Really that is all you are down to now. Your own personal perceptions from a bubble that you live in.

Dude. Get a life. For the last 25 years I have debated white racists (and know them when I read their crap... hint, hint.) They are the ones that told me if I went to the emergency room I could simply "look and see illegals (sic) getting free health care." Now, really, WTF? Now, all of a sudden the white supremacist talking point isn't valid? REALLY??? REALLY???

I don't do background checks and all that other B.S. nor will I ever. I'll pay a fair price and if one of your kind looks at a Mexican they are already an illegal alien... look at the dumb ass allegation you just made. You don't know any more than I do whether that guy had human registration papers or not


Couple questions
Are you in support of open borders?
Would you agree to allow reciprocity in regards to immigration laws with Canada other nations?
By reciprocity, I mean whatever Mexican immigration laws are in regards to illegal entry by US citizens, we would apply the same matrix to them.

I answered your questions above. Now, let us get to the real question. But, let's get to the truth here:

The loaded question "Are you for open borders?" is an emotion laden buzz term that is used by white supremacists to separate the White Nationalist from the liberals. So, the simple answer is one of those garden variety, have you stopped beating your wife? kinds of questions.

Do I support open borders? What is the alternative? That is what you don't want to answer. The radical right wants the atmosphere of the pee test, blood test, give a hair sample, MVR check, credit check, criminal background check, driver's license, National ID Card, Socialist Surveillance Number ...ooops, "Social Security Number," occupation license, proof of insurance, and a valid voter ID just to get a cell phone or a job in a warehouse or fast food dump.

Those who want a border wall would erase the notion of jurisdictions, forcing state and local LEOs to enforce potentially unconstitutional laws against the citizenry, and keeping armed drones over our heads 24 / 7 / 365. Those who envision a border wall want a government that NO group of people (including the citizenry) could ever resist its might. Those people are oblivious to the fact that a government big enough to give you all you want is big enough to take all you have. The border wall people would subject this country to a complete and total POLICE STATE.

Most of the laws that were aimed against so - called "illegal aliens" have been employed against the citizenry of the United States and the impact has gutted most of our Constitution. Innocent Americans have already been murdered; many people have gone to prison without the advantage of Due Process... all because non-thinking people got swayed by white supremacist talking points.

As if all that were not enough, the build the wall types don't have the moral courage to admit who the people were that began all of this man the border, build a wall rhetoric in the first place. The fact that you would condemn me for putting MY FAMILY AND THEIR needs above some guy wanting to charge outrageous prices that I cannot afford says two things:

1) Race above God. Race above family

2) The job you create is not yours. It belongs to the almighty State

These are the two first tenets of the NATIONAL SOCIALIST WHITE PEOPLE PARTY PLATFORM

Those who yap about the wall try to hide behind a cloak of respectability, but when they expect you to lose your home because you can't afford to keep it up under the terms of what the white supremacists expect AND they think you screw someone out of a job because they want more than the job is worth is a dead giveaway as to what they are REALLY about.

The difference between them and myself, I don't try to beat around the bush. So, let me spell it out for you.

I, like my forefathers (beginning with those who landed at Plymouth Rock in 1620) believe America to be the New Jerusalem prophesied in the Bible. It is the spot for the regathering for biblical Israel.

Our history attests to the fact that our position is unique, above that of any other nation in the annals of history. Period. Anything short of making America all white again can be accomplished by removing the barriers to Liberty and Freedom, allowing the free market to do that which it was designed to. Whatever the goose stepping nazis are promising, you can do it with citizen initiatives (NO government involvement necessary.)

The mass deportation thing has been tried and failed. Currently, you're gutting the Constitution trying to create the ultimate POLICE STATE. NOBODY who appreciates Freedom and Liberty wants a wall. NOBODY who supports the foundational principles upon which this nation was founded wants a wall. NOBODY who understands our Constitution and our history wants to force people to become citizens on the mistaken premise that a government / God grants us our Rights.

I wonder how many of these white supremacists pretending to be concerned about the future will actually tell their wives, they would put their family last if some American wanted to do work for them they couldn't afford, but COULD afford it if they could hire who they wanted... I wonder if their family knows how low on the scale they really rate.

"He who would give up essential Liberty for the promise of temporary Safety deserves neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

Last edited by imaginethat; January 16th, 2018 at 10:01 PM.
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Old January 14th, 2018, 07:03 PM   #48
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I wonder, since corporations are being claimed to hire illegal workers, why is it individuals are the ones caught, not the CEO's or any other officers? The Poultry plant raids under Bush netted persons in the HR department who were also Hispanic, taking advantage and helping their fellow Hispanics, selling them forged/fake/stolen documents. It was the HR personnel that were charged.

Even the recent 7-11 raids netted the store managers as the ones using stolen identities to employee over 100 illegal workers.
Quote:
U.S. immigration agents arrested 21 people suspected of living in the country illegally in a predawn sweep targeting dozens of 7-Eleven stores across the country.

The operation marks the expansion of an investigation into a string of New York and Virginia franchises first opened in 2013, when it was discovered several managers there used stolen identities to employ at least 100 people in the country illegally.

Despite the arrests, the early morning raids were specifically aimed at management.
What immigration laws have effected US Citizens? If the Patriot Act is the claim then that so called citizen would have had to have been perceived as a Domestic Terrorist, i.e. private militia nuts like these: http://www.esquire.com/news-politics...rrorists-0212/

So what actual immigration laws have effected US Citizens? The short and simplest answer is, Not a single one. SHRUG

The Pilgrims had to obtain permission from the King of England and be granted a land parcel to come to the New World. The Pilgrims weren't even the first ones here, England had numerous settlements and small colonies already beginning. John Winthrop came over in 1630. A Shining City upon a Hill - Quote - Puritans and Intolerance
Quote:
John Winthrop's "shining" city had more in common with the various totalitarian utopias in history than with the spirit of the Bill of Rights passed more than 100 years after his death.
This bears repeating: If someone hires a person to work at their home and is directing them as to what to do they are then the employer and are required by law to with hold all taxes and and have the proper insurance for having an employee. If someone hires a contractor to do a job then they should be prepared to pay a price that covers that contractors required insurances, tools, taxes, costs of doing business, wages, etc.

If you pay laborers cash or check made out to them, especially if they have no business license, then you are the employer and if you are not paying the proper insurance and withholding taxes and paying them as required by law, then you are cheating the rest of America. If you knowingly hire illegals, then you are the problem. I suggest learning basic law, both business and tax. Liberty is not being denied because of these laws. SMFH

Last edited by TreeDoc; January 14th, 2018 at 08:37 PM.
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Old January 14th, 2018, 07:43 PM   #49
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Mom said, "If you can't beat them, join them." I am too old to fight and let the young punks do the fighting.
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Old January 14th, 2018, 07:55 PM   #50
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Mom said, "If you can't beat them, join them." I am too old to fight and let the young punks do the fighting.
You should adopt a more positive approach. With me, there is a little bit of snow on the roof, but plenty of fire in the furnace.
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