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Old June 29th, 2014, 11:35 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Beasty View Post
"The life of a single human is worth a million times more than all the property of the richest man on earth." -Che Guevara.

It's hypocritical coming from the man who so adamant in advocating the death of people around him, and I don't support the death penalty under any circumstances, but his point is important to me.

I don't like people who know they could do something and won't. Yet, they're still human beings- their lives are worth something. I can't accept that they should be allowed by our own disinterest to die, even if they themselves have chosen the path that leads to that.
Then we disagree. I can't see debate changing things for me at this stage in my life. I wish I could revisit you on your 40th birthday. I have witnessed many who had your lifeview as young men (m/f) but as life went on and they accumulated children and mortgages and a desire to get their kids through university would combine those with a view at the spread between gross earnings and take-home on their pay stubs and start to change their opinions.

And some who didn't.
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Old June 29th, 2014, 11:48 AM   #92
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Then we disagree. I can't see debate changing things for me at this stage in my life. I wish I could revisit you on your 40th birthday. I have witnessed many who had your lifeview as young men (m/f) but as life went on and they accumulated children and mortgages and a desire to get their kids through university would combine those with a view at the spread between gross earnings and take-home on their pay stubs and start to change their opinions.

And some who didn't.
And my goal is to eliminate that economic instability that pits us against one another. Those words only solidify my world view. It's a sad day when you have to reconcile the sanctity of life with the prospect of protecting your own, and it's something I will not simply accept, no matter how old I get. If I have to spend my life advocating or perhaps fighting against it then so be it, I would rather breath my very last breath with the thoughts of people weighing on my conscious then live a life without that.
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Old June 29th, 2014, 11:53 AM   #93
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And my goal is to eliminate that economic instability that pits us against one another. Those words only solidify my world view. It's a sad day when you have to reconcile the sanctity of life with the prospect of protecting your own, and it's something I will not simply accept, no matter how old I get. If I have to spend my life advocating or perhaps fighting against it then so be it, I would rather breath my very last breath with the thoughts of people weighing on my conscious then live a life without that.
It isn't economic instability, it's a matter of fairness. Why should the fruits of one man's labor be given to another who is capable but chooses to mooch off others?

That you exist doesn't rate you a participation ribbon.
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Old June 29th, 2014, 12:11 PM   #94
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It isn't economic instability, it's a matter of fairness. Why should the fruits of one man's labor be given to another who is capable but chooses to mooch off others?

That you exist doesn't rate you a participation ribbon.
Because "the fruits of one man's labor" are neither derived from solely their labor alone nor is it acceptable to allow someone to suffer ill fate when the resources necessary to help them exist, regardless of their circumstances.

It is about economic instability- in fact, that is mostly what it's about. Economic instability is built within the foundation of our economic system, because it allows high social mobility at the expense of always requiring a under-served and over-served class, whether they be there by the own volition or not. We as a species have the resources and skills necessary to manage ourselves, so that not only do we eliminate both a subservient and over-embellished classes, thus eliminating a fight or flight, sink or swim mentality that is systematically designed to harm a subset group of people- but in the process we also create a social order in which everything that is achieved benefits all at a more fundamental and spread out level.

Democratic Centralism and social collaboration built upon a foundation of empathy is something completely conspicuous at the smaller scales of social management. In any group setting, both ideas naturally occur in how we organize ourselves, so this idea that it's only "human nature" to take advantage of others (directly or indirectly) for the benefit of a few select people closer to you is utter rubbish. It is both within our best interest and our deepest desires to work with one another.
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Old June 29th, 2014, 12:28 PM   #95
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This is the nuttiest bunch of gobbledeegook I've read on this site since Absols inherited an Oxford dictionary....

...

Make whatever you will of Capitalism...but it made the internet you are expounding it's "evil" (your word) upon.
(My bold)

& here I thought it was DARPA that put together the seminal funding for the mainframe computers that eventually led to the Internet. See Internet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The first message on the ARPANET, a forerunner of today's Internet, was sent between UCLA and Stanford University, both in California, in 1969.[1]

"The origins of the Internet date back to research commissioned by the United States government in the 1960s to build robust, fault-tolerant communication via computer networks.[2] While this work, together with work in the United Kingdom and France, led to important precursor networks, they were not the Internet. There is no consensus on the exact date when the modern Internet came into being, but sometime in the early to mid-1980s is considered reasonable.[3] From that point, the network experienced decades of sustained exponential growth as generations of institutional, personal, and mobile computers were connected to it."

What I recall is that DARPA was looking for extremely robust, self-healing networks, with an eye to maintaining comms in case Nuke War or some other cataclysm - natural or manmade - were to break out. DARPA's interest & funding continued, until the network gained enough heft & momentum to no longer need assured DoD funding. There's a nice timeline @ the URL.

So, no, it wasn't Capitalism that funded the Internet. It was big government, setting science/technology/defense policy, that actively recruited & funded the seeds of what became the www. DoD set up the schema, & Capitalism did fill in the social & profitability blanks - which has been true of most of the technological breakthroughs in the US - radio, TV - where no one knew how to many money off them initially.

Both technologies were originally allocated to schools/universities, where the bugs were worked out & business/advertising models were worked out, helped along by WWI & II. Then the schools/universities were cut out of the growing profits, patted on the head, allowed residual low-power licenses, & left in the rear-view mirror. & so it goes ...
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Old June 29th, 2014, 12:35 PM   #96
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There is an alternative to illegal immigration..


it is called LEGAL immigration


The process, it begins here:

Homepage | USCIS
Who is talking about immigration? I'm talking about Socialism and Communism and how I think it's the right way to go in the long term, as long as we're careful about how exactly we go about implementing it.
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Old June 29th, 2014, 12:45 PM   #97
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It is both within our best interest and our deepest desires to work with one another.
I'm addressing your entire post, but am saving bandwidth. The major fault in your "analysis" is the IMO naive assumption that the leaches will see beyond their laziness and recognize the best interest and of society and somehow develop this deepest desire to work with one another. I have not seen as much evidence for this behavior from Joe and Josephine Average as I have seen evidence of continued taking because it's free and easy.

I have worked with four people who came to Canada as adults from the Scandinavian countries. And it is the Scandinavian countries that have always confused me as examples where it appears that socialism seems to work. Pretty well everywhere else it has been an abject failure. Anyway, after I got to know them I asked all four why they chose to come to Canada and why it seems that socialism works in their home countries. I will exclude one because of his virulent, verging on fanatical hate of socialism. The other three all gave basically the same reply. Socialism works there because there is still a social stigma associated with being on the dole if there wasn't a real reason. Those who were on the dole actively took training for a new career for example, without the government mandating such things. But each of them also felt strongly that under that system their rewards were not proportional to their achievements and abilities. So they wanted to be where reward was proportional to contribution. (And at that time it was easier to get into Canada than the US, which would have been their first choice.)
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Old June 29th, 2014, 12:46 PM   #98
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(My bold)

& here I thought it was DARPA that put together the seminal funding for the mainframe computers that eventually led to the Internet. See Internet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The first message on the ARPANET, a forerunner of today's Internet, was sent between UCLA and Stanford University, both in California, in 1969.[1]

"The origins of the Internet date back to research commissioned by the United States government in the 1960s to build robust, fault-tolerant communication via computer networks.[2] While this work, together with work in the United Kingdom and France, led to important precursor networks, they were not the Internet. There is no consensus on the exact date when the modern Internet came into being, but sometime in the early to mid-1980s is considered reasonable.[3] From that point, the network experienced decades of sustained exponential growth as generations of institutional, personal, and mobile computers were connected to it."

What I recall is that DARPA was looking for extremely robust, self-healing networks, with an eye to maintaining comms in case Nuke War or some other cataclysm - natural or manmade - were to break out. DARPA's interest & funding continued, until the network gained enough heft & momentum to no longer need assured DoD funding. There's a nice timeline @ the URL.

So, no, it wasn't Capitalism that funded the Internet. It was big government, setting science/technology/defense policy, that actively recruited & funded the seeds of what became the www. DoD set up the schema, & Capitalism did fill in the social & profitability blanks - which has been true of most of the technological breakthroughs in the US - radio, TV - where no one knew how to many money off them initially.

Both technologies were originally allocated to schools/universities, where the bugs were worked out & business/advertising models were worked out, helped along by WWI & II. Then the schools/universities were cut out of the growing profits, patted on the head, allowed residual low-power licenses, & left in the rear-view mirror. & so it goes ...
I noticed Al Gore was absent from the creation of the Internet.
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Old June 29th, 2014, 01:28 PM   #99
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I noticed Al Gore was absent from the creation of the Internet.
(My bold)

Nah, he was there. If you're interested, see Al Gore and information technology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Al Gore served as the Vice President of the United States from 1993 to 2001. He is the co-winner of the 2007 Nobel Peace Prize. In the 1980s and 1990s, he promoted legislation that funded an expansion of the ARPANET, allowing greater public access, and helping to develop the Internet."

He didn't invent the Internet, but he was a comms guy in the military - journalism? I don't think his interest ran to the hands-on part, but he was leaning forward on electronic technology while in Congress & as VP. See the URL for details.
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Old June 29th, 2014, 01:41 PM   #100
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I'm addressing your entire post, but am saving bandwidth. The major fault in your "analysis" is the IMO naive assumption that the leaches will see beyond their laziness and recognize the best interest and of society and somehow develop this deepest desire to work with one another. I have not seen as much evidence for this behavior from Joe and Josephine Average as I have seen evidence of continued taking because it's free and easy.

I have worked with four people who came to Canada as adults from the Scandinavian countries. And it is the Scandinavian countries that have always confused me as examples where it appears that socialism seems to work. Pretty well everywhere else it has been an abject failure. Anyway, after I got to know them I asked all four why they chose to come to Canada and why it seems that socialism works in their home countries. I will exclude one because of his virulent, verging on fanatical hate of socialism. The other three all gave basically the same reply. Socialism works there because there is still a social stigma associated with being on the dole if there wasn't a real reason. Those who were on the dole actively took training for a new career for example, without the government mandating such things. But each of them also felt strongly that under that system their rewards were not proportional to their achievements and abilities. So they wanted to be where reward was proportional to contribution. (And at that time it was easier to get into Canada than the US, which would have been their first choice.)
I never said that I believed that leeches will see the error of there ways. Leeches exist regardless of what economic system you have in place, they exist in socialism and they exist here and now. To provide some sort of a counter-point, though, I have big ideas about America's (and most of the worlds) public education system. I think part of the reason at least some people are so-called leeches is because they don't know or understand how to get into a field they flourish in, and the key to fixing that lies in reworking education, more specifically public education. Having public schools for each individual town is a HUGE waste of resources, and on top of that increases the gap between education inequality because not all towns are economically equal and can afford higher standards of education.

Creating public education institutions, at least at the primary/highschool level, not per town but per a county or higher, allows you to have more course selection, more money centered within one specific school, and allows a greater diversity of both students, faculty and their social exposure to different ideas, motivations, and characters within a society at such a pivotal age.

On top of that, I would contend that the idea of College/University is itself obsolete. While it may put many institutions out of business, Public highschool could be extended for a few years, and in the process individualized curriculums could be implemented, culminating in the process of obtaining the knowledge required to pursue a particular career you have shown promise or interest in throughout your highschool experience. Coupled with that could be state organized internship programs to help students, especially ones with more advanced fields of study, get their foot in the door.
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