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Old June 29th, 2014, 05:30 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by webguy4 View Post
you work in a factory, some people work hard, some people are slackers.

time to cut spending before the factory goes out of business, who do you fire, the hard workers? or the slackers?

america is falling down the predictable path of democracies. once people learn to vote themselves benefits from the public trough the fall is inevitable.

as the fall happens you can count on two things from me, I'll say "I'm against it", and I'll say, "I told you so".
And what's the other choice? Lay off the slackers so that they and their families starve? Not provide benefits to people simply because they don't (or can't) contribute?

This kind of problem is inherently bred within the capitalism because it is by nature a survival-of-the-fittest economic system. You will have winners and losers by nature, and loosing historically and currently (moreso in the third world, but regardless) means death.

We have to find an option C. And that's where I'll say "look at this". Ignore NowhereMan and those who like to think I advocate Marxism out of ill intent because I don't. I see the problem above and ask myself "well it's clear we can't keep this up forever- how do we adjust to the ever increasing population, the increasing need for technological innovation, reimagine the education system so that we have a more intelligent populace, and adjust for a future where automation will (and should) take over most blue collar work?" And I make the case that reimagining the way we view economies and the actors within them can help us do that. It's obvious that if we make different industries public it has been shown to be more cost effective, and that's not without good reason. A political system that will give more power to the average citizenry while simultaneously creating the first real absolutely transparent government can give people enough insight into how well such programs are working, how and if they need to be changed, and what changes to incorporate. A centrally planned, or at the very least indicative, economy should help us better manage our resources wisely and put them into the hands of those providing for the betterment of society, rather than the whims of whatever a dumbed down consumerist populace feels like spending needless money on that day. Put that image of an overbearing authoritarian state out of your mind. That's not at all the thing I'm talking about. I'm talking about a spin that hasn't ever been tried before, ever. One in which the state is not it's own actor, nor is the economy dictated by the individual whims of needless spending extrapolated within the free market, but a collective of more informed citizenry using the state as a catalyst for managing the programs we all depend on, and one that because it is centralised, is more efficient and cost effective; nor is it in direct competition with the public since it is not trying to make a profit.

That's it. There's no plans to control anyone or destroy the family or any of that shit. Honestly, it doesn't even enter my mind, I couldn't care less about that. When you guys say things like that, it just pisses me off because it feels like a dodge of valid critisism and a potentially viable system, all over a strawman.
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Old June 29th, 2014, 06:22 AM   #82
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And what's the other choice? Lay off the slackers so that they and their families starve? Not provide benefits to people simply because they don't (or can't) contribute?
That is exactly what needs to be done.
Davy Crockett's fine speech:
Not Yours to Give : Library : Foundation for Economic Education

[/quote]This kind of problem is inherently bred within the capitalism because it is by nature a survival-of-the-fittest economic system. [/quote]

It is the best economic system for human nature.
Communism/socialism goes against man and nature.

Quote:
You will have winners and losers by nature, and loosing historically and currently (moreso in the third world, but regardless) means death.
Well, in nature you have winners and losers.
It's natural.
In life you have winners and losers.
It's natural.
Fight nature, you lose.

Quote:
We have to find an option C. And that's where I'll say "look at this". Ignore NowhereMan and those who like to think I advocate Marxism out of ill intent because I don't.
You support Marxism because you are too poorly educated to know any better and buy into the propaganda.
You support the destruction of Western values and culture and religion, yet these are the things that provided the charity and support for the "losers" in our system.
That is why communism seeks to tear it down.

Quote:
I see the problem above and ask myself "well it's clear we can't keep this up forever- how do we adjust to the ever increasing population, the increasing need for technological innovation, reimagine the education system so that we have a more intelligent populace, and adjust for a future where automation will (and should) take over most blue collar work?"
Sounds like part of a liberal politican's speech.
Technological innovation is dying in this country due to increasing gov't regs, poorer education, loss of mfg., and rampant illegal immigration.
Why seek automation when millions of cheap laborers are available?

Quote:
And I make the case that reimagining the way we view economies and the actors within them can help us do that.
Not by those who are hate Western values and traditions and have a poor education and understanding of science, history, and economics.
If you don't understand a system what makes you think you can change it for the better?
Been done and failed repeatedly by commies.
Always end in suffering.

Quote:
It's obvious that if we make different industries public it has been shown to be more cost effective, and that's not without good reason.
Nationalize industry?
That's what you have in mind?

Quote:
A political system that will give more power to the average citizenry while simultaneously creating the first real absolutely transparent government can give people enough insight into how well such programs are working, how and if they need to be changed, and what changes to incorporate.
transparent like Obama's admin?
LOL!
Your side is addicted to lying to further your agenda, your side is INCAPABLE of being honest therefore this will never happen.
Commies always say shit like this and do the opposite.
Like in Laos, when the people were promised a fair future, then the gov't kill everyone with and education of 8th grade or higher.
To be fair.

Quote:
A centrally planned, or at the very least indicative, economy should help us better manage our resources wisely and put them into the hands of those providing for the betterment of society, rather than the whims of whatever a dumbed down consumerist populace feels like spending needless money on that day. Put that image of an overbearing authoritarian state out of your mind. That's not at all the thing I'm talking about. I'm talking about a spin that hasn't ever been tried before, ever. One in which the state is not it's own actor, nor is the economy dictated by the individual whims of needless spending extrapolated within the free market, but a collective of more informed citizenry using the state as a catalyst for managing the programs we all depend on, and one that because it is centralised, is more efficient and cost effective; nor is it in direct competition with the public since it is not trying to make a profit.
blah blah blah pipe dreaming commie shit that has never, EVER worked.
This is why I keep pointing out your ignorance.
Been done repeatedly, always fails, tired of hearing it.
Here is an article about Jamestown, kid:
Socialism at Jamestown | Cato @ Liberty


Quote:
That's it. There's no plans to control anyone or destroy the family or any of that shit.
Yes, there is.
It is a large part of socialism/communism and can't be taken out of the system.
You talk about nationalizing business and taking away people's rights and then claim not to be for doing just that?

Quote:
Honestly, it doesn't even enter my mind, I couldn't care less about that. When you guys say things like that, it just pisses me off because it feels like a dodge of valid critisism and a potentially viable system, all over a strawman.
No, it is part and parcel of socialism/communism and necessary in order to impose the system on people.
Strong nuclear families and traditions of personal freedom and right to self defense all work against communism.
how can you call it a viable system when it has failed every time it was tried?
EVERY TIME!
Not kidding.

Basically, you are saying you advocate a system you don't really understand and wonder why people keep criticizing you.

This is what pisses me off about your arguments, you just don't understand what the fuck you are talking about then throw hissy fits when people tell you that and why you shit is unworkable.

Here are some illustrative cartoon for my enjoyment:

Why the eagle, beezly?





"Lay off the slackers so that they and their families starve? Not provide benefits to people simply because they don't (or can't) contribute?"
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Old June 29th, 2014, 06:25 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Camelot View Post
Liberalism today means you don't wish to have a group of bitter, old white turds dictating how you can live your life.
No it means the bitter, paranoid turds want to FORCE us to believe in abortion, homosexual marriage and everything else that is deviant. As they have no moral compass and do not value anyone else's life but their own.
Thanks from NowhereMan
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Old June 29th, 2014, 09:37 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by azchurchmouse View Post
No it means the bitter, paranoid turds want to FORCE us to believe in abortion, homosexual marriage and everything else that is deviant. As they have no moral compass and do not value anyone else's life but their own.
Speaking of bitter and paranoid, you.


Get over yourself, nobody's trying to force you to believe in anything. I'd love to see you try to prove otherwise. Making gay marriage legal isn't the same as "forcing" you to accept it, quit playing victim.
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Old June 29th, 2014, 10:06 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by NowhereMan View Post
That is exactly what needs to be done.
Davy Crockett's fine speech:
Not Yours to Give : Library : Foundation for Economic Education

It is the best economic system for human nature.
Communism/socialism goes against man and nature.



Well, in nature you have winners and losers.
It's natural.
In life you have winners and losers.
It's natural.
Fight nature, you lose.



You support Marxism because you are too poorly educated to know any better and buy into the propaganda.
You support the destruction of Western values and culture and religion, yet these are the things that provided the charity and support for the "losers" in our system.
That is why communism seeks to tear it down.



Sounds like part of a liberal politican's speech.
Technological innovation is dying in this country due to increasing gov't regs, poorer education, loss of mfg., and rampant illegal immigration.
Why seek automation when millions of cheap laborers are available?



Not by those who are hate Western values and traditions and have a poor education and understanding of science, history, and economics.
If you don't understand a system what makes you think you can change it for the better?
Been done and failed repeatedly by commies.
Always end in suffering.



Nationalize industry?
That's what you have in mind?



transparent like Obama's admin?
LOL!
Your side is addicted to lying to further your agenda, your side is INCAPABLE of being honest therefore this will never happen.
Commies always say shit like this and do the opposite.
Like in Laos, when the people were promised a fair future, then the gov't kill everyone with and education of 8th grade or higher.
To be fair.



blah blah blah pipe dreaming commie shit that has never, EVER worked.
This is why I keep pointing out your ignorance.
Been done repeatedly, always fails, tired of hearing it.
Here is an article about Jamestown, kid:
Socialism at Jamestown | Cato @ Liberty




Yes, there is.
It is a large part of socialism/communism and can't be taken out of the system.
You talk about nationalizing business and taking away people's rights and then claim not to be for doing just that?



No, it is part and parcel of socialism/communism and necessary in order to impose the system on people.
Strong nuclear families and traditions of personal freedom and right to self defense all work against communism.
how can you call it a viable system when it has failed every time it was tried?
EVERY TIME!
Not kidding.

Basically, you are saying you advocate a system you don't really understand and wonder why people keep criticizing you.

This is what pisses me off about your arguments, you just don't understand what the fuck you are talking about then throw hissy fits when people tell you that and why you shit is unworkable.
No, human beings are social animals and it is within our nature to work together. The idea that we are all out to get each other or that it is within reasonable limits to harm another for the sake of your own is something propagated by those who have historically profited from it, and it was one of the greatest lies ever told. Well, I guess that all applies to normal people, not sociopathic scumbags like yourself who openly admit they would rather see a person starve than succumb to a bit of profit loss for a business. I almost feel sorry for you, clearly you've either never been shown love or you're just a broken person.

I never defended Obama in my life- that's a strawman. I've never once advocated the government utilized by Stalinist Nations in the 20th century- that's a strawman. I will not be guilty by association of atrocities committed in the past- that's a fallacy. I will not allow you to utilize those said atrocities to discredit the actual economic theory that was supposedly (not really very well) implemented in such countries- that's a red herring. I will not sit there and be accused of advocating the removal of human rights of people- that's a strawman. I will not be called ignorant simply because you can't be assed to formulate a reasonable stance on the issue, since god forbid you'd have to actually question yourself and open up the possibility that you're wrong- that's an ad hominem.

To make a long story short, you're an idiot who has no actual argument. You spit venom at things you have no intention of understanding and your proud of that ignorance. You're a one trick pony, you like to think you're edgy or cool for being an unbearable ass but truth is you're already boring. Most people don't even debate with you at this point, you just get ignored. The only ones who even give you any attention consistantly are AZ and I (for two VERY different reasons I may add), but to be honest I'm kind of done with you as well. You're boring, there's nothing special about you. You're instigative behavior has gotten old at this point, so goodbye and good riddance.
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Old June 29th, 2014, 10:06 AM   #86
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"lay the slackers off so they starve"....

no, you would be amazed what people can and will do when they finally learn that feeding themselves is their job.

so ya keep the slackers on til everyone's outta work? ya gotta know that doesn't really help anyone.

Last edited by webguy4; June 29th, 2014 at 10:08 AM.
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Old June 29th, 2014, 10:12 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by webguy4 View Post
"lay the slackers off so they starve"....

no, you would be amazed what people can and will do when they finally learn that feeding themselves is their job.

so ya keep the slackers on til everyone's outta work? ya gotta know that doesn't really help anyone.
And if they don't or can't?

You can't take the risk that they might not be able or willing to. I'm sure in some, or even most cases, people find a way. But that kind of trouble isn't helping us any, and it's not okay to simply let that slide. We have have the ability to install and alternative that can help migrate some of that burden off of individuals, and we ought to organize ourselves in a way that can do so.
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Old June 29th, 2014, 10:27 AM   #88
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And if they don't or can't?

You can't take the risk that they might not be able or willing to. I'm sure in some, or even most cases, people find a way. But that kind of trouble isn't helping us any, and it's not okay to simply let that slide. We have have the ability to install and alternative that can help migrate some of that burden off of individuals, and we ought to organize ourselves in a way that can do so.
There is an alternative to illegal immigration..


it is called LEGAL immigration


The process, it begins here:

Homepage | USCIS
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Old June 29th, 2014, 10:28 AM   #89
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And if they don't or can't?

You can't take the risk that they might not be able or willing to.
That is where I totally disagree with you. We have a free society. You are free to not be productive even when capable. You are also free to decide to starve to death.

It's that simple.
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Old June 29th, 2014, 11:24 AM   #90
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That is where I totally disagree with you. We have a free society. You are free to not be productive even when capable. You are also free to decide to starve to death.

It's that simple.
"The life of a single human is worth a million times more than all the property of the richest man on earth." -Che Guevara.

It's hypocritical coming from the man who so adamant in advocating the death of people around him, and I don't support the death penalty under any circumstances, but his point is important to me.

I don't like people who know they could do something and won't. Yet, they're still human beings- their lives are worth something. I can't accept that they should be allowed by our own disinterest to die, even if they themselves have chosen the path that leads to that.
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