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Old February 15th, 2017, 08:20 PM   #31
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so the authorities come around, kick in her bedroom door, drag her kicking and screaming to the hospital where she is ,presumably, tied down, medicated and given an abortion that she clearly doesnt want.
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Originally Posted by coke View Post
Yes, I am ok with that.
wow. just wow. personally i find it hard to think of anything more evil than forcing your way into the private home of a law abiding citizen and forcing them to abort a child they want to take to term. i struggle to imagine how any moral human being is ok with it.

oh, but you qualify it with this.

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Especially since a minor has the opportunity to petition the court to be emancipated before that would ever happen. Furthermore a guardian would be appointed in that situation. Which would most likely end up in a judicial decision.
this process would not be quick, it would not be cheap, it would not be simple and frequently it would simply not work as neatly as you seem to think.

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Your just making it into much more drama that it would be
but it would a drama. if she locks herself in her bedroom, someone will need to smash in the door. if she kicks and hits and struggles she is going to need to be physically restrained. if she decides to spit and bite others are going to be put at significant risk. all this will continue at the hospital, the doctors and nurses will need her to be physically restrained in some fashion, held still or tied up, so they can do the procedure.

just imagine how the rest of the world is going to think. the other patients see a young girl brought in to hospital, screaming and abusing everyone for taking away her rights and killing her child, they watch her be restrained, medicated against her will and taken into theatre. the rest of the patients as "who was she, whats happening?" and they are told, its all ok, she is just being given an abortion she doesnt want.

and you are ok with that.

i work in community mental health, i know what it is like to visit someone at their home and take them to hospital against their will, i have done it, i know exactly how much of a drama it is. its a drama for family, neighbors, ambulance crew, police, often a locksmith to gain access. its painful, it sucks for everyone, but most importantly, it sucks for the person who it is done to; to have committed no crime, to have hurt nobody, and to have your rights and freedom removed and medication pumped into them against their wishes, it is incredibly traumatic. it is far more of a drama than you seem to think.
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Old February 15th, 2017, 08:30 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by hot dragon View Post
wow. just wow. personally i find it hard to think of anything more evil than forcing your way into the private home of a law abiding citizen and forcing them to abort a child they want to take to term. i struggle to imagine how any moral human being is ok with it.

oh, but you qualify it with this.



this process would not be quick, it would not be cheap, it would not be simple and frequently it would simply not work as neatly as you seem to think.



but it would a drama. if she locks herself in her bedroom, someone will need to smash in the door. if she kicks and hits and struggles she is going to need to be physically restrained. if she decides to spit and bite others are going to be put at significant risk. all this will continue at the hospital, the doctors and nurses will need her to be physically restrained in some fashion, held still or tied up, so they can do the procedure.

just imagine how the rest of the world is going to think. the other patients see a young girl brought in to hospital, screaming and abusing everyone for taking away her rights and killing her child, they watch her be restrained, medicated against her will and taken into theatre. the rest of the patients as "who was she, whats happening?" and they are told, its all ok, she is just being given an abortion she doesnt want.

and you are ok with that.

i work in community mental health, i know what it is like to visit someone at their home and take them to hospital against their will, i have done it, i know exactly how much of a drama it is. its a drama for family, neighbors, ambulance crew, police, often a locksmith to gain access. its painful, it sucks for everyone, but most importantly, it sucks for the person who it is done to; to have committed no crime, to have hurt nobody, and to have your rights and freedom removed and medication pumped into them against their wishes, it is incredibly traumatic. it is far more of a drama than you seem to think.
I dont know how things work in Aussie, but in the USA you generally need a court order to snatch someone up for medical care they do not want. Also a minor can have a court appointed attorney and its not going to cost a penny or in this case it would probably be a GAL
https://www.jud.ct.gov/Publications/FM224.pdf

The main thing is this. A minor, generally cant have even minor medical procedures done without parental/guardian consent. Yet, the 14 year old can get an abortion without consent or even so much as notification to the parents. So, I would amend my statement to this to at least make it more palatable. No minor should be able to get an abortion without the knowledge of the parent(s) or guardian. But, I really do think the parents should have be able to say no and a GAL with the court be involved.

Last edited by coke; February 15th, 2017 at 08:40 PM.
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Old February 15th, 2017, 10:30 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by coke View Post
I dont know how things work in Aussie, but in the USA you generally need a court order to snatch someone up for medical care they do not want. Also a minor can have a court appointed attorney and its not going to cost a penny or in this case it would probably be a GAL
https://www.jud.ct.gov/Publications/FM224.pdf
under the mental health act all it takes is for a doctor to sign the paperwork. well, it also requires the patient to have a serious psychiatric issue that is putting them or others at risk, then you can sign the paperwork. thats the scenario i have been involved in, its legal, its sometimes neccessary, but it still sucks. the actual process i described above is accurate. its brutal.

but this is all a dodge anyway. the whole point of being underage and needing adult permission is because they are sometimes going to disagree with the child. what if the courts agree with the parents? what if they appoint a pro abortion guardian? this might happen, in which case the brutal scenario i described above will occur, with the blessing of the court. if you are assuming that the underage girl will always get a court decision and guardian in her favour, then why bother with the whole process, and just let her make the decision in the first place? i mean, the court isnt just there to a rubber stamp the whims of a 14 year old girl, the court will make its own decision.

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The main thing is this. A minor, generally cant have even minor medical procedures done without parental/guardian consent. Yet, the 14 year old can get an abortion without consent or even so much as notification to the parents. So, I would amend my statement to this to at least make it more palatable. No minor should be able to get an abortion without the knowledge of the parent(s) or guardian.
i have highlighted a couple of important points. in australia and i suspect its the same in america, an emergency falls outside of the 'general' scenario. in an emergency you do not need to find the parents. the doctor on the scene can act effectively as guardian and can provide whatever consent is needed.

and an unwanted pregnancy qualifies as an emergency. a night of unprotected sex qualifies too. so an underage girl can seek a doctor for contraception, morning after pill, or abortion, and the doctor doesnt need to go any further. its an emergency, they can intervene. i suspect this is also the case in america.

you want a situation where "no underage child gets an abortion without the knowledge of their parents or guardian". that qualifier is already satisfied.

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But, I really do think the parents should have be able to say no and a GAL with the court be involved.
see above. whats the point? if the parents can say no, and the child can always get the court to overrule the parents, then the parents actually dont have a say, do they? the underage child is getting what they want against the parents wishes. you are just adding a legal hurdle that doesnt change the outcome.

Last edited by hot dragon; February 15th, 2017 at 10:36 PM.
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Old February 16th, 2017, 09:50 AM   #34
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under the mental health act all it takes is for a doctor to sign the paperwork. well, it also requires the patient to have a serious psychiatric issue that is putting them or others at risk, then you can sign the paperwork. thats the scenario i have been involved in, its legal, its sometimes neccessary, but it still sucks. the actual process i described above is accurate. its brutal.

but this is all a dodge anyway. the whole point of being underage and needing adult permission is because they are sometimes going to disagree with the child. what if the courts agree with the parents? what if they appoint a pro abortion guardian? this might happen, in which case the brutal scenario i described above will occur, with the blessing of the court. if you are assuming that the underage girl will always get a court decision and guardian in her favour, then why bother with the whole process, and just let her make the decision in the first place? i mean, the court isnt just there to a rubber stamp the whims of a 14 year old girl, the court will make its own decision.


i have highlighted a couple of important points. in australia and i suspect its the same in america, an emergency falls outside of the 'general' scenario. in an emergency you do not need to find the parents. the doctor on the scene can act effectively as guardian and can provide whatever consent is needed.

and an unwanted pregnancy qualifies as an emergency. a night of unprotected sex qualifies too. so an underage girl can seek a doctor for contraception, morning after pill, or abortion, and the doctor doesnt need to go any further. its an emergency, they can intervene. i suspect this is also the case in america.

you want a situation where "no underage child gets an abortion without the knowledge of their parents or guardian". that qualifier is already satisfied.


see above. whats the point? if the parents can say no, and the child can always get the court to overrule the parents, then the parents actually dont have a say, do they? the underage child is getting what they want against the parents wishes. you are just adding a legal hurdle that doesnt change the outcome.
Yes, an emergency does fall outside that. Emergency medical care will be done, and also a GAL will be appointed until the parents or guardian can be reached.
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Old February 16th, 2017, 02:58 PM   #35
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Yes, an emergency does fall outside that. Emergency medical care will be done, and also a GAL will be appointed until the parents or guardian can be reached.
but the GAL will be the doctor, or someone else a the medical centre. thats the nature of an emergency, you DONT wait to contact the parents, you just do what needs to be done. and if that is an abortion then you do it. without talking to the parents.

so, the system as it is right now satisfies your criteria. would you like to see the system change?
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Old February 16th, 2017, 06:25 PM   #36
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but the GAL will be the doctor, or someone else a the medical centre. thats the nature of an emergency, you DONT wait to contact the parents, you just do what needs to be done. and if that is an abortion then you do it. without talking to the parents.

so, the system as it is right now satisfies your criteria. would you like to see the system change?
In regards to minors receiving abortions without parental notification. Yes, absolutely.
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Old February 16th, 2017, 06:48 PM   #37
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In regards to minors receiving abortions without parental notification. Yes, absolutely.
i know that sounds sensible, and usually thats what happens, not many people have abortions without those closest to them not knowing. but sometimes its kept secret for good reasons.

imagine a family with parents who, from their perspective, "impose strict discipline" which is their euphemism for "perpetrators of domestic violence". they have drilled into their childs head that abortion is murder, and if they ever have an abortion they will be punished just like any murderer would be. they have also been told that premarital sex is a sin that will also be punished.

if a 15 year old in that family gets pregnant, it really isnt a good idea that the parents find out.
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Old February 16th, 2017, 06:52 PM   #38
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In regards to minors receiving abortions without parental notification. Yes, absolutely.
can i clarify, it sounds like you have perhaps softened your position. previously your position was parents needed to give their consent, and could if they chose, withold consent, and then the abortion would not occur, or could give consent against the childs wishes, which would lead to a forced abortion.

you now seem to be saying no, the parents need to be informed, but they do not have the right to overrule the decision. you now seem to be arguing for parents to be aware of the decision, not for parents to be the ones who make the decision.
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Old February 16th, 2017, 06:58 PM   #39
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what if parents dont give consent?
Have the baby! (probably should give up for adoption)
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Old February 16th, 2017, 07:13 PM   #40
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wow. just wow. personally i find it hard to think of anything more evil than forcing your way into the private home of a law abiding citizen and forcing them to abort a child they want to take to term. i struggle to imagine how any moral human being is ok with it.

oh, but you qualify it with this.



this process would not be quick, it would not be cheap, it would not be simple and frequently it would simply not work as neatly as you seem to think.



but it would a drama. if she locks herself in her bedroom, someone will need to smash in the door. if she kicks and hits and struggles she is going to need to be physically restrained. if she decides to spit and bite others are going to be put at significant risk. all this will continue at the hospital, the doctors and nurses will need her to be physically restrained in some fashion, held still or tied up, so they can do the procedure.

just imagine how the rest of the world is going to think. the other patients see a young girl brought in to hospital, screaming and abusing everyone for taking away her rights and killing her child, they watch her be restrained, medicated against her will and taken into theatre. the rest of the patients as "who was she, whats happening?" and they are told, its all ok, she is just being given an abortion she doesnt want.

and you are ok with that.

i work in community mental health, i know what it is like to visit someone at their home and take them to hospital against their will, i have done it, i know exactly how much of a drama it is. its a drama for family, neighbors, ambulance crew, police, often a locksmith to gain access. its painful, it sucks for everyone, but most importantly, it sucks for the person who it is done to; to have committed no crime, to have hurt nobody, and to have your rights and freedom removed and medication pumped into them against their wishes, it is incredibly traumatic. it is far more of a drama than you seem to think.
Lost in this discussion is the most innocent person, THE BABY
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